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Post by maximus on Oct 15, 2008 16:36:19 GMT
Please Maximus, assume I have done my homework before I hit the keyboard. I am not asserting that you did not, and I have no issue with you. My point is that that affiliation was requested, and duely volunteered. The same was requested of him, and ignored. If one does not wish to give such, all one needs to do is so state. Ignoring the inquiry is not good form. Giving one's affiliation, i.e., UGLE, GLoS, etc., is not revealing anything that would indentify one. No one is asking for his name and lodge.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Oct 15, 2008 17:59:49 GMT
As Bro. Bill said, the decision to reveal, or not to reveal, as well as to ask, or not to ask, is with the individual. Bro. Arch can ask but he need not be answered. He also can be asked but he need not answer (as he's done quite a lot).
That said . . . I know who Bro. Arch is. I vouch for him as a Brother. If that really is a concern anyone here is having, then give it a rest. He's cool.
I will not be very happy with any further efforts to pressure Bro. Arch, or anyone else, into revealing more than s/he cares to. The Internet provides many levels of anonymity and it's something we tacitly agree to when we enter an online forum. Anyone who doesn't like that needs to not participate in online discussion.
As Bro. Arch applied no pressure to get his questions answered, no pressure should be applied to him. If you don't want to talk to Bro. Arch, then don't.
Let the thread progress elsewhere from here.
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Post by penfold on Oct 15, 2008 18:16:36 GMT
Yes, just to back imakegarb on this - anonimity is a well held principle of the internet, I am not at all happy to see members bullying and badgering someone to reveal their GL affiliation. It is a private matter for the individual to reveal or not reveal as they see fit
Please continue
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Post by penfold on Oct 15, 2008 18:22:09 GMT
What would be beneficial about visiting for either? Well, here in Ireland many of my Brothers from GLoI tell me repeatedly they would love the opportunity to visit and sit with me and my wife in Lodge. Also many UGLE Brothers expressed their sadness of not being permitted to attend my Initiation. Clearly these Brethren would have appreciated if such visitations were possible between our respective Obediences. Ummm, Leo - elsewhere you mention how few of the malecraft masons you have met in ireland are even aware of women and other masonic orders, I'm confused....how can they express a desire to visit something they don't know about?
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Oct 15, 2008 18:41:23 GMT
I'm confused....how can they express a desire to visit something they don't know about? Maybe they speculate upon something that could never possibly happen? Not in Ireland anyway. Never. Ever. ( little giggles).
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 15, 2008 19:14:22 GMT
Ummm, Leo - elsewhere you mention how few of the malecraft masons you have met in ireland are even aware of women and other masonic orders, I'm confused....how can they express a desire to visit something they don't know about? A few is still some.
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Post by leonardo on Oct 15, 2008 19:17:55 GMT
Well, here in Ireland many of my Brothers from GLoI tell me repeatedly they would love the opportunity to visit and sit with me and my wife in Lodge. Also many UGLE Brothers expressed their sadness of not being permitted to attend my Initiation. Clearly these Brethren would have appreciated if such visitations were possible between our respective Obediences. Ummm, Leo - elsewhere you mention how few of the malecraft masons you have met in ireland are even aware of women and other masonic orders, I'm confused....how can they express a desire to visit something they don't know about? That's right. Only a few are aware of the involvment of women in the Craft, but now, as a result of speaking to the likes of me and others from my Obedience (LDH) and indeed other Co-Masonic bodies, more are slowly learning about us. The few GLoI friends of mine are of course aware of the likes of LDH but they are unfortunately very much in the minority. Thankfully, things are changing, though. Incidentally, some of the women in my lodge are married to GLoI Freemasons and naturally these Malecraft Masons know of our existence but sadly they are but a few compared to the amount of GLoI members in the whole of Ireland. The vast majority are surprised to learn that Freemasonry is not 100 percent entirely male orientated.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 15, 2008 19:18:32 GMT
As Bro. Arch applied no pressure to get his questions answered, no pressure should be applied to him. If you don't want to talk to Bro. Arch, then don't. Agreed. Even so, one may feel bemused.
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Post by maximus on Oct 15, 2008 19:34:57 GMT
Even so, one may feel bemused. Indeed.
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Post by corab on Oct 15, 2008 21:21:24 GMT
As Bro. Arch applied no pressure to get his questions answered, no pressure should be applied to him. If you don't want to talk to Bro. Arch, then don't. Agreed. Even so, one may feel bemused. Most bemused.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Oct 15, 2008 21:36:04 GMT
[quote author=architekt board=news thread=4541 post=68206 time=1224105631Some GLs have a special procedure where they will allow a member to resign in certain circumstance. However, if a member decided not to resign then the GL would move to expel that member. Sometimes a voluntary resignation is also considered a sine die exclusion from Fmy.[/quote] Like giving the prospective martyr a choice of falling on their own sword or face the drawn/hung/quartered thing.
(very tight grimace)
This is a loathsome policy. Especially among Brothers.
It also assumes the Brother being put thru such a trial won't consider martyrdom a sort of approbation. That's an assumption that could backfire.
It would be better, I think, to not pay any attention to it at all and allow the Brother his/her freedom of conscience. It will, after all, work out for the best; though "the best" may not suit some.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 15, 2008 23:10:10 GMT
Now as has already been said, Bro Tamrin, (Philip Carter) has been a Mason since he was Initiated in 1978 and he still is. He may have Resigned from his former Grand Lodge, under duress by the look of things, but that does not mean that he Resigned as a Mason merely from one Masonic Body. I did the same, Resigned from UGLE in Dec 2006 and the day after became a Joining Member of Le Droit Humain. At no time whatsoever did I Resign from being a Freemason!
I feel Architekt that you have a hidden agenda here. In fairness to all I think that you should declare your Affiliation, as others have done.
I often disagree with Tamrin but I would like to know why you are digging him out? He has never hidden his Masonic history nor pretended to be anything else than who and what he is. On the other hand Architekt you have been very coy about informing us of who you really are. For all we know you could be a well read but new EA, all the way up to a High Ranking Grand Officer or indeed may be a Cowan who is well versed in matters Masonic. I think we should be told.
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Post by maximus on Oct 16, 2008 0:24:40 GMT
The reason I am at this forum is to learn and understand more about Fmy of all kinds. I do notice that when factual information is provided there is an immediate defensive attitude adopted. I have found out from personal experience that this is not the way to learn anything or a way that will encourage another to share information. I suspect that because I am reasonably knowledgeable (self taught) about a number of Masonic matters then some here are not used to that. Perhaps before they could post messages and know one was actually able to challenge it or formulate a reply that asked to understand the matter more by requesting additional details. That just comes with experience though. Let me assure one and all that no one here has any reason to be concerned about my participation. Unless they are afraid of facts. No, we are not afraid of facts. I am rather fond of them myself, and have always insisted on reason when examining these subjects. Most of the facts that you have presented are already known to myself and others on this board. Perhaps the problem is not our fear, but rather the way said facts have been presented.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 16, 2008 0:48:46 GMT
I will wait for the Official Reports from the Law Courts on these two matters when they are being tried. As to opinion I have my own on these issues and that is as good as yours or anyone else's, thank you.
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Post by maximus on Oct 16, 2008 0:51:35 GMT
I am pleased to hear that many already know the facts. Some of the replies here would tend to mitigate against that though. You will notice that I attack the argument not the person. May I ask how you would like me to the present the facts here in the future? Perhaps there is forum rule that I overlooked. You're a smart man. I'm sure you can figure it out. I wouldn't want to be seen as badgering.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 16, 2008 0:56:19 GMT
Agreed. Even so, one may feel bemused. Believe me, this trial was not made with a view to sport with your feelings; far be from me any such intention. It was done to enable me to understand the complete matter. A proper reply can only ever be formulated if one has all the information and that does require full disclosure and explanatory background information to start with. Not just one chapter of the story. First, to put your principles to the test, Second, to evince to the Brethren you had niether m.. or m.s..... about you ......... Third, as a reminder to your own conscience if you should ever meet a bemused Brother
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Oct 16, 2008 4:38:41 GMT
Brothers . . .
I called earlier for this thread to move on. It started to, then didn't.
Staying where we are is not cool and several moderators and admins already have posted why.
The topic, near as I can recall, has something to do with the official patent of the GOUSA. You can return to that topic or go off in some other positive direction but you can't stay here.
If there is one more post that indicates this thread can't move forward, then I will assume it just can't and I will lock it.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 16, 2008 7:54:42 GMT
What do you think would subsequently happen if you now applied to re-join? There was never any suggestion of expelling me and there were indeed a number of years between my having been asked to consider resigning and my doing so. Thus, I am not aware of any impediment to me rejoining (the Secretary of my mother lodge has recently asked if I would consider doing so—it is not out of the question). What relevance do you place on my masonic standing in relation to my stated opinions?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Oct 16, 2008 8:30:28 GMT
I suspect that because I am reasonably knowledgeable (self taught) about a number of Masonic matters then some here are not used to that. You may be over-generalizing &/or under-estimating.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Oct 16, 2008 18:04:08 GMT
First, to put your principles to the test, Second, to evince to the Brethren you had niether m.. or m.s..... about you ......... Third, as a reminder to your own conscience if you should ever meet a bemused Brother Y'know, I've never thought of it this way. But I have, at times, encountered a number of bemused Brothers. And, yeah, I guess it is incumbent upon me to be compassionate and merciful to such as these. So what m* or v* do we have, or lack, that allows us to respond in this way?
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