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Post by hollandr on Jul 9, 2008 4:29:14 GMT
Another thread led me to consider the nature of imagination - from "imaginare" - to form images.
The issue I suppose is whether images that are formed in the mind have any reality outside that mind.
I recall reading of Tesla (discoverer of alternating current) who was supposed to have designed a machine in his head and operated it for perhaps 2000 hours in his head and then dismantled it in his head and examined the wear characteristics. When he had the machine built a decade or two later he stated in advance what the wear characteristics would be - and so they were.
So was Tesla's image-working connected to some external reality?
And what of image-based telepathy?
I recall many years ago that I was on the end of a long plank that had to be moved around in a tight spaces. I found that I could not give verbal instructions fast enough to the other fellow to achieve coordination. So I experimented and discovered that if I visualised what he should do, and not say anything, then he would do that and the coordination was excellent.
So did that image-working have some reality outside my mind?
What then are the proper roles of imagination and how might we achieve them?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 9, 2008 8:02:26 GMT
I would say your Tesla example is one whereby he was so throughly acquainted with the REALITY of his subject matter that he was able to effectively visualize and manipulate related ideations in his mind, much the same as the process involved in Robert M. Pirsig's classic text, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. This process is quite distinct from imagining something as other than what it objectively is and adding further layers of illusion to the glamour by which we are already enthralled.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 9, 2008 9:32:39 GMT
>he was able to effectively visualize and manipulate related ideations
So how is that ability obtained?
Is it related to visual telepathy?
And what uses does it have beyond mechanical engineering?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 9, 2008 10:38:15 GMT
>he was able to effectively visualize and manipulate related ideations
So how is that ability obtained? The same way one gets to Carnegie Hall—Practice! Or, as with The Karate Kid—Wax on: Wax off. It's a process of internalisation which applies to most, if not all skills.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 9, 2008 11:23:26 GMT
>Practice!
So what is the practice undertaken to produce imagery results usable in the physical world - such as achieved by Tesla?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 9, 2008 11:39:41 GMT
>Practice!
So what is the practice undertaken to produce imagery results usable in the physical world - such as achieved by Tesla? I would have though the answer was obvious from what I have already said: "Internalisation," by focused study and concentration on the subject matter and repeated experimentation, until one is so familiar with its permutations and nuances that one can visualise REAL possibilities without the need for concrete examples.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 9, 2008 23:16:28 GMT
The Special Theory of Relativity en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity was apparently developed after Einstein had lain in a field and imagined what it was like to travel down a sunbeam. So it seems that Einstein perceived some unexpected reality in his day dream. (It took him 7 years to convert what he saw into mathematics - and recently some have wondered whether his conversion was flawed) For myself I find it moderately difficult to image travelling down a sunbeam - probably because I tend to compose new images from previous experiences. How then can we leap to an image with properties that have no basis in our experience?
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 9, 2008 23:20:51 GMT
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Post by whistler on Jul 10, 2008 0:51:53 GMT
>Practice! So what is the practice undertaken to produce imagery results usable in the physical world - such as achieved by Tesla? I have long wondered about Tesla and his brilliant mind - and his mysterious death maybe at the hands of the Big Money American companies of his time. The more Tesla is studied the more one is in wonder at his mind - His claim to be able to create energy and deliver it through the earth. The rumour that his experiments might have caused the Tunguska Explosion. His death ray and more -- this chap knew many things that are not understood and acknowleded
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 10, 2008 9:16:09 GMT
I'm a bit sceptical about some of Einstein's Theories and yes it has been said that he invented his own Maths to make things fit.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 10, 2008 12:09:30 GMT
Einstein does bring out religiosity in some scientists and for many years it was difficult to publish any dissident articles in scientific journals. It seems however that rational debate is now possible - if you publish your own journal www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue59/adissidentview.htmlI recall reading that calculating the distance of Venus using radar pulses using relativistic calculations (speed of reflected pulse independent of speed of Venus) produces very poor results and that newtonian calculations are required to get Moon shots to the right places Of course some prefer quantum mechanics to relativity.
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Post by maximus on Jul 10, 2008 16:08:27 GMT
Maybe imagination is really aliens planting images in our heads to control us...
... ;D
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 10, 2008 20:52:26 GMT
It seems however that rational debate is now possible As there famously was in Einstein's day and ever since. Similarly, biologists still debate and refine details of Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection, but there remains agreement concerning the core of the hypothesis. Even so, kooks refer to such debate to argue there is some fundamental disagreement among reputable scientists.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 10, 2008 22:20:46 GMT
>but there remains agreement concerning the core of the hypothesis
Only amongst those who support the hypothesis
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Post by hollandr on Jul 10, 2008 22:25:55 GMT
>Maybe imagination is really aliens planting images in our heads to control us...
Given the difficulty of defining the meaning of alien, distinguishing heads from minds and postulating separativeness of human minds, it might be better to generalise the hypothesis as:
- Do some mental images originate outside the human race?
And of course there is a long history of such beliefs - e.g. divine messages in dreams
So how would we devise a test for images originating outside the human race?
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Post by maximus on Jul 11, 2008 3:58:04 GMT
>Maybe imagination is really aliens planting images in our heads to control us... Given the difficulty of defining the meaning of alien, distinguishing heads from minds and postulating separativeness of human minds, it might be better to generalise the hypothesis as: - Do some mental images originate outside the human race? And of course there is a long history of such beliefs - e.g. divine messages in dreams So how would we devise a test for images originating outside the human race? Russell, I was pulling your leg there, Bro.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 11, 2008 4:51:44 GMT
>I was pulling your leg there, Bro.
I was quite aware of that
Nevertheless you provided some useful content - just technically a bit difficult for untrained observers to test.
It is an interesting exercise to attempt to make a statement that contains no truth whatsoever.
Cheers
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Post by hollandr on Jul 11, 2008 5:01:51 GMT
>Do some mental images originate outside the human race?
This question can take us in interesting directions.
For example, there are accounts of telepathy between humans and dogs.
So, do dogs visualise?
If so, telepathic humans could receive images from outside the human race.
The simplest form of that might be, for example, reading a book and suddenly getting an image of cat food, and looking up to find your cat sitting the kitchen watching you hopefully
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 11, 2008 8:17:55 GMT
>but there remains agreement concerning the core of the hypothesis
Only amongst those who support the hypothesis I had referred to "biologists" and other "reputable scientists," who are among those guided by reason. In the context of this thread, they are people who have put in the requisite time and practice and become thoroughly imbued with the permutations and nuances of their subject matter. Still, I am reminded of the saying, "Don’t argue with a fool. The spectators can’t tell the difference." The oldest Masonic apron I saw was in a display of ancient egyptian artefacts.
The apron was an oblong - a little longer than is used in some lodges - with long ties and a gold braid border. The central fabric (linen?) was missing but otherwise it was easily recognisable and almost identical to the 1918 apron used for my raising
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 11, 2008 9:19:25 GMT
Yes Bro Russell, I had a strong telepathic bond with Kizzy, the tortoiseshell cat that my ex wife and I shared our home with. Kizzy stayed with the ex-wife when we split but when I visited Brighton I would see the cat. She lived to 21, a very good age for a cat. (105 in human terms I understand)
Often I "knew" what Kizzy wanted and she too seemed to be aware if things were not right for me, or I was unhappy, ill etc.
I also had a similar telepathic bond with my late mother who passed from this mortal and mundane plane in just over 7 years ago now.
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