Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 16, 2008 22:53:18 GMT
I take it that that is an agreement that imaging is not confined to mental processes. Only if you choose to ignore the 'by definition' bit.
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Post by maat on Jul 17, 2008 23:30:21 GMT
Have been away and not had time to go thru this lengthy thread, so forgive me if I repeat a question.
Dreams - it seems people constantly dream of things that they wouldn't/couldn't imagine existing or happening in their waking life. Weird and wonderful images that arise without conscious thought.
Long before I even knew a woman could become a mason I dreamed of a pillar, the top of which was the most beautifully carved decoration I had ever seen. It was so beautiful, that upon waking I actually had a debate with myself which went along the lines of ... if I can dream that I must be able to do that. If my subconscious can imagine that, my conscious must be able to recreate it. Took about 2 seconds to know this was not my imagination. The design was totally above my creative ability.
So my question is... where does dream imagination come from? I won't take 'subconscious' as the simple answer, unless you expand on it.
Maat
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Post by hollandr on Jul 17, 2008 23:39:48 GMT
>where does dream imagination come from?
Do rationalists say that dreams come from rehashing past experiences and readings?
What if human consciousness is not confined to single bodies? Would dreams then be shared?
What if intelligence is not limited to humans? Would dreams then be shared across species?
What if intelligences were actually part of something bigger (like intelligent cells within a brain)? Could dreams then be part of the greater being?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 18, 2008 10:17:18 GMT
So my question is... where does dream imagination come from? I won't take 'subconscious' as the simple answer, unless you expand on it. S.U..B...C....O.....N......S.......C........I.........O..........U...........S
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Post by hollandr on Jul 18, 2008 10:49:03 GMT
>S.U..B...C....O.....N......S.......C........I.........O..........U...........S
Subconscious rather seems to be a where not a what.
So what is it that is beneath the human consciousness?
And how do we know that the dream images come from below?
Perhaps some dreams come from above? Certainly there are many religious traditions about divine dreams
Do I feel another cartoon coming on?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 18, 2008 11:29:55 GMT
So what is it that is beneath the human consciousness? The Mystic Tie: The Unity of All that Is: The One Life!
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Post by hollandr on Jul 18, 2008 11:33:37 GMT
>The Mystic Tie: The Unity of All that Is: The One Life!
So is that where nightmares come from?
And that still seems to be a very generalised label - not allowing much space for the scientist
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 18, 2008 11:36:10 GMT
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Post by hollandr on Jul 18, 2008 11:53:15 GMT
>Try Systems Theory.
So what is the group of objects (or intelligences) in this case that acts together to produce dreams or imagination?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 18, 2008 12:01:28 GMT
Ourselves and both the subsystems which 'comprise' us and the super-system/s to which we contribute.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 18, 2008 21:30:10 GMT
Perhaps we need to discover more components of the human.
What about considering whether the chakras have any role in dream images
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Post by hollandr on Jul 18, 2008 22:30:38 GMT
>Chakras could conceivably be points of connection in that interdependence.
Quite so
Now how can we investigate the relationship between particular dream images and particular chakras?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 18, 2008 22:31:07 GMT
In case you missed it: Ourselves and both the subsystems which 'comprise' us and the super-system/s to which we contribute. Subsystems, systems and the super-system/s are interdependent. Chakras could conceivably be points of connection in that interdependence.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 18, 2008 22:36:53 GMT
Sorry, I had deleted that post and was going to reply differently. However, I see you have already replied. So I have reposted it. My answer to your question is, as usual, REASON.
From your lack of comment, I presume you now accept the relevance of Systems Theory.
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Post by hollandr on Jul 19, 2008 1:30:27 GMT
>I presume you now accept the relevance of Systems Theory
Systems theory is good - but like any logical process is no better than its starting data
And what are the starting data:
>S.U..B...C....O.....N......S.......C........I.........O..........U...........S
>The Mystic Tie: The Unity of All that Is: The One Life!
>Ourselves and both the subsystems which 'comprise' us and the super-system/s to which we contribute.
I thought you made a useful contribution in your deleted post:
>Chakras could conceivably be points of connection in that interdependence.
The chakra structure and intelligences may indeed be some of the data input for a systems analysis
I wonder how content finds its way into dreams or indeed any unbidden image
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 19, 2008 2:36:46 GMT
I wonder how content finds its way into dreams or indeed any unbidden image Mostly from within (abstractions of our own direct experiences and fantasies) and possibly some transcendent from without (through connections with the super-system/s)
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Post by hollandr on Jul 19, 2008 4:50:00 GMT
>Mostly from within (abstractions of our own direct experiences and fantasies) and possibly some transcendent from without (through connections with the super-system/s)
So if the content of some dreams comes from without, does that content exist independently of the dreamer or imaginer?
If so then other intelligent beings should be able to access the same dream or image
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Jul 19, 2008 6:34:33 GMT
So if the content of some dreams comes from without, does that content exist independently of the dreamer or imaginer? No more than the system (dreamer) can exist independently of its source (the super-system/s). I wrote elsewhere (The Quarry Masonic Forum): My take on death is premised on there being but one life, of which we are all expressions. As the leaf on the vine will die, another will take its place in the following season. The first leaf is dead and, as a leaf, it has no direct connection with the subsequent leaf. However, each leaf arose from its source and partook of the nature of the vine: It is the vine itself that provides the connection. The ‘higher self’ that survives death is the vine, which provides the connection between one leaf and the next. Indeed, some properties acquired by the first leaf may have been learnt by the vine which, in turn, may have recalled them when giving rise to the subsequent leaf. As individuals, we can transcend our ‘selves’ and glory in being expressions of the one life. At this level we can share in various levels and lines of collective consciousness and collective memories, giving a mistaken sense of our present, individual selves having lived before. However, when 'I' die, that’s it—I’m dead—but life goes on. And, with that guerdon, I am content. I suspect not that the universe is God ( pantheism) but that it is IN God ( panentheism). Just as our 'individual' totality, including our unifying and transcendent mind, cannot be explained simply by the sum of our parts, so too I expect that the totality of the One Life from which we arise, in which (for a time) we exist (being that which is essentially 'us') and which lives on after we have died, probably exceeds the sum of Her manifest parts.
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