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Post by hollandr on Aug 17, 2008 3:11:49 GMT
Why is this thread hard work instead of fun?
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Post by astraia on Aug 17, 2008 3:28:54 GMT
Bro:. Russell, heaven only knows. It seems to keep happening. Maybe it's my fault.
Bro:. Tamrin,
Define words for whose sake? Mine, yours, or everybody else's?
With what purpose? So that I can justify to your satisfaction each and every word I chose to use and reasons for doing so?
It is your prerogative to interpret these words as you wish. Given that the majority of my posts have had an academic flavor, and I was anxious to note that that's not the only perspective I see things from, as I for one, am a stranger here, I wished to pre-empt the likelihood of anyone rolling their eyes and thinking "oh there she goes with her highbrow academia again." Which of course might have been a pointless exercise and I may have completely misjudged how my posts come across. Or it may not have been, for others. And naively wishing to demonstrate that I am not, in fact, a dessicated monomaniac who can regurgitate nothing but academic theorems, I explained why I was doing so first.
As to whether I don't really like doing this, well, then I must be a complete nut to be sitting here at 5 in the morning thinking "oh, look, someone's asking about why Freemasonry's esoteric, let me see if I can throw in something useful that someone might find interesting." And then wasting my time to type it up.
As to whether I think it's not a very good approach, well I must be a complete basket case to have spent two years of my life, a lot of money, and foregone months of sleep while working two jobs so that I could study it. As to the definition of a"disclaimer" - you're the one with the dictionary. But if you're going to give me a literal interpretation then beware, that means that by my own definition I am also a "dry indehiscent one-seeded fruit with a woody pericarp" according to the Merriam-Webster. In which case I'm beyond salvation. Could it have been a figure of speech? Now there's a novel concept.
There, now, completely against my better judgement, I've justified myself. No doubt it won't be found satisfactory, but then that is the glory of being human. Having, as Gandhi said, the freedom to err.
Also. Which part of "I'm bilingual and sometimes have problems with translation" was equally unclear? (see my introductory post). Despite that I indeed"retain accountability and responsibility" for my word usage, consider it a rhetorical question.
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 17, 2008 3:33:40 GMT
Why is this thread hard work instead of fun? Is this more to your liking?
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 17, 2008 3:38:06 GMT
Define words for whose sake? Mine, yours, or everybody else's? For the sake of effective communication.
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Post by astraia on Aug 17, 2008 4:06:24 GMT
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 17, 2008 5:09:39 GMT
Then we agree!? Definitions are important for effective communication.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 17, 2008 5:44:24 GMT
Which part of "I'm bilingual and sometimes have problems with translation" was equally unclear? ...I'm bilingual, but more accustomed to using English at this level as all my studies have been in English, so sometimes in Greek I would use too general a term or a shortcut which sounded vague. In this instance I was not writing Greek and nor were you
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Post by astraia on Aug 17, 2008 15:12:44 GMT
Agree on what? That this has gone pointlessly off topic, and that an insistence on fine definition on points not immediately relevant to discussion serves to do nothing other than add to the confusion? Well, if it makes you happy then OK. I'll let others judge whether or not the necessity of defining "disclaimer" was central to what started as an interesting discussion, and whether two separate points made regarding two separate instances of language use in two separate contexts are of equal centrality to discussion. This isn't a personal issue Bro:., and if you feel the need to query my use of academic vs any other approach then there may be others who do not. Your apparent concern over the relationship of the typology I posted re the Traditionalist school was a valid one; I attempted to allay what I perceived as concern, from there on I see nothing relevant in any of the ensuing discussion, something for which I, too, am responsible as dialogue requires two speakers. We certainly agree on the need for clarity in communication - a central element of which is understanding the context within which a comment is made and responding within the same context if one wishes to remain relevant.
As for the definition of esotericism, i stand by my position that the various approaches complement and do not detract from each other. You may believe what you please.
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Post by leonardo on Aug 17, 2008 15:23:31 GMT
I personally feel that what we gain from our Masonic participation and involvement can not be shared with those outside the Craft, even if we wanted to. It is, after all, something that can only be experienced.
The whole journey can be all quite personal, and what one member experiences may well be very different from another.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 17, 2008 16:47:10 GMT
Agree on what? That this has gone pointlessly off topic, and that an insistence on fine definition on points not immediately relevant to discussion serves to do nothing other than add to the confusion? Well, if it makes you happy then OK. I'll let others judge whether or not the necessity of defining "disclaimer" was central to what started as an interesting discussion, and whether two separate points made regarding two separate instances of language use in two separate contexts are of equal centrality to discussion. This isn't a personal issue Bro:., and if you feel the need to query my use of academic vs any other approach then there may be others who do not. Your apparent concern over the relationship of the typology I posted re the Traditionalist school was a valid one; I attempted to allay what I perceived as concern, from there on I see nothing relevant in any of the ensuing discussion, something for which I, too, am responsible as dialogue requires two speakers. We certainly agree on the need for clarity in communication - a central element of which is understanding the context within which a comment is made and responding within the same context if one wishes to remain relevant. As for the definition of esotericism, i stand by my position that the various approaches complement and do not detract from each other. You may believe what you please. - I have no problem with following a thread wherever it leads.
- Nor do I have a problem with an academic approach.
- You appear to respond to more than I write.
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Post by maat on Aug 18, 2008 1:35:06 GMT
Why is this thread hard work instead of fun? Now ask us a really hard question..
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Post by maat on Aug 18, 2008 1:45:28 GMT
Astraia - as you can probably tell, I need a tertiary education and I am delighted to be able to learn from you. I think you have a real talent for communication and I thank you for the time and effort you put into your posts.
Nothing like an eager student to encourage a teacher, eh?
Maat
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Post by astraia on Aug 18, 2008 3:19:16 GMT
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Post by whistler on Aug 18, 2008 6:25:55 GMT
Astraia You must not let Tamrin Bog you down - He is an Australian - that just makes him a little different - He uses much bigger words than I can be bothered with. He often strays far from his Song Line. Just let him be. My answer to you is quite simple. Within our Masonry we have Freemasons - very good masons at that. Who do not see anything in Freemasonry other than things they can see with their own eye, or hear with their own ears. Most of them would see Freemasonry beginning from guilds etc.That is their right and I accept that. Others see and are aware of many things that are unseen in our lodges. So some of us seeing a person sitting in the SW's pedestal. Others may see a person overshadowed by an Angelic Being sittting in the SW's Pedestal. Each are entitled to their beliefs - as we are all FREEmasons. Esoteric Freemasonry bit is just a simple generic word to use when talking about the unseen goings on. If you want my personal view there is no such thing as Esoteric Freemasonry I wonder why some are not aware of the visitors and energies that appear when we open our lodge - they are not esoteric they are a reality. Καλή υγεία
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 18, 2008 9:29:17 GMT
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Post by pw on Aug 18, 2008 9:47:07 GMT
For instance I was interested in Coral Castle or should I say Edward Leedskalnin and his supposed secret knowledge of magnetism and the application of sacred geometry. With Leedskalnin's magnetic theories, he claimed it was possible to store energy without appreciable loss (not as remarkable as the perpetual motion notions others have attributed to his ideas). As for his coral constructions, he didn't say what methods he used (levers, pulleys—who knows?). Lack of knowledge is not sufficient grounds for attributing supernatural causes. OK now that did sound childishly presumptuous of me but I only came to that idea because I know that Leedskalnin was a Freemason and he had some formulaes gathered from his understanding of ratio's in geometry that have been translated directly to sybolism in Freemasonry. www.code144.com/Its seems there have been some increadibly successful people in this brotherhood of Freemasonry and I'm just trying to understand weather there is a connection between their success and their teachings from Freemasonry. Sorry for my vague idea's but everyone who is not a Freemason would have the same questions.
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Post by pw on Aug 18, 2008 9:59:24 GMT
Astraia You must not let Tamrin Bog you down - He is an Australian - that just makes him a little different - He uses much bigger words than I can be bothered with. He often strays far from his Song Line. Just let him be. My answer to you is quite simple. Within our Masonry we have Freemasons - very good masons at that. Who do not see anything in Freemasonry other than things they can see with their own eye, or hear with their own ears. Most of them would see Freemasonry beginning from guilds etc.That is their right and I accept that. Others see and are aware of many things that are unseen in our lodges. So some of us seeing a person sitting in the SW's pedestal. Others may see a person overshadowed by an Angelic Being sittting in the SW's Pedestal. Each are entitled to their beliefs - as we are all FREEmasons. Esoteric Freemasonry bit is just a simple generic word to use when talking about the unseen goings on. If you want my personal view there is no such thing as Esoteric Freemasonry I wonder why some are not aware of the visitors and energies that appear when we open our lodge - they are not esoteric they are a reality. Καλή υγεία Thanks Whistler, thats closer to the kind of response I was looking for
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Post by hollandr on Aug 18, 2008 10:41:18 GMT
Paul It may be that you have not been properly welcomed for your question: " I'd just like to know if any of you have gained that knowledge." Most Masons learn by osmosis in the lodge, particularly by working the ritual so that in time they may come to have some instinct for the beautiful and the true. This instinct is indeed a knowingness but a knowingness that often has for a map only the veiled allegories and instructions of Masonic ritual. It may be hard therefore to answer your question other than by quoting ritual Still however, at some time in the past, ritual was developed that did support such osmotic learning, so it is likely that the brethren responsible did indeed have a deeper understanding. While that deeper understanding has not been directly transmitted to the present day there survive within the ritual some of the hidden meaning placed there centuries ago. In the absence of a direct transmission of knowledge it is up to the individual brother to seek as best he or she can. Those seekers of hidden meaning are commonly called esoteric Masons. And to aid their search they use a variety of skills learned elsewhere including meditation and qabalistic practices. Some of those esoteric Masons have indeed gained knowledge about the inner nature of Creation - often by observing carefully on those occasions when the Spirit shows itself more clearly in a lodge working. (Of course similar observations can be made in many situations outside the lodge) For myself, I could say that I now am able to observe more closely the workings of the local cosmos - with the metaphor of the lodge proving a most useful map of inner realities. As for scientific knowledge, that is less obvious in the lodge workings. Some ritual workings still include knowledge of the elementals - and cooperation of the elementals is generally required for extensions to scientific practice. Some centuries ago the reformation of Masonry was influenced by Rosicrucian alchemists. While some of the principles of alchemy can be detected in the current versions of ritual, I suspect that alchemical interests are best pursued directly. If you wish to find technology hidden directly in Masonry then you may wish to read "Civilisation One" www.amazon.com/Civilization-One-World-Not-Thought/dp/1842930958 in which Knight demonstrates without stating it that the typical lodge has the equipment for establishing exact measurement systems (imperial and metric - weight, volume and time) with good accuracy anywhere on the planet. There may of course be more that I have not detected And finally I note that some centuries ago, some English lodges would include scientific discourses in their proceedings. This is generally no longer the case for various reasons, but at least one of the Masonic offshoots does encourage scientific pursuits - SRIA and its derivatives sria.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=135Cheers Russell
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Post by pw on Aug 18, 2008 12:28:27 GMT
Excellent thanks Russell I will most definately read the book you mentioned too.
Apologies for my ignorance but this is all new to me and I find the little information I know so increadibly facinating, being a man of science.
The SRIA looks like the thing I am looking for.
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Post by jerohm on Aug 18, 2008 13:28:41 GMT
beware : SRIA is only for UGLE (or "regular") Master Masons, unless it has changed...
AMORC is a rosicrucian order too.
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