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Post by hollandr on Sept 9, 2008 0:42:15 GMT
I noticed on another thread the comment:
- I wonder why some are not aware of the visitors and energies that appear when we open our lodge
That is an interesting question and it may have several threads:
- faculties for subtle perception - belief systems - stage/status of life - group agendas - independence of action
It may be of use to consider events or times in which those not usually susceptible have had clear inner perceptions.
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 9, 2008 9:03:30 GMT
I noticed on another thread the comment: - I wonder why some are not aware of the visitors and energies that appear when we open our lodge Russell I want to comment on this quote, because this is probably the nub of my own dismay at my (UGLE) Freemaonry. If I was to bring this subject up at my ordinary lodge meeting, the majority of members would look at me as if I was mad. Yet fundamentally it is the very crux of Freemasonry. In UGLE we all have to profess a belief in God. If this is not just lip service surely when we open our lodges and call upon the GAOTU to assist us in our labours we should at least have the decency to assume he may actually be listening us? And in fact may even have the presumption to show up occasionally? (or one of his servants?). Or is it just that bethren have no idea what it is they are actually doing when they open a Lodge?
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Post by hollandr on Sept 9, 2008 9:21:23 GMT
> when we open our lodges and call upon the GAOTU to assist us in our labours we should at least have the decency to assume he may actually be listening us?
While some brethren can tell when the feeling in the lodge changes, there is often a lack of a conceptual map to assist in analysing the situation. The lack of a map also means that brethren often do not know when and how to pay attention to the inner processes
>And in fact may even have the presumption to show up occasionally? (or one of his servants?).
It took me many years to spot the GAOTU. From my observation He does see lodges in a somewhat unfocused way - until the lodge starts to function more effectively at which time He pays more attention
But I suspect that there are more difficulties than lack of attention and lack of concepts
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 9, 2008 9:52:18 GMT
I certainly do not agree with MP, we are not asked to accept God.
We are asked to accept the existence of a 'supreme being', whom that deity is is your own choice.
It could be the Egyptian Sun God 'Ra' or 'JHW' or 'Allah' or 'me', some think I am pretty supreme you know. [ask my Grand kids.
The door is left so wide open I am perplexed as to how anyone can complain.
The entire ritualistic living theatre is taken from the foundation stories of the Worlds thee most known religions, again I am perplexed as to why any Atheist would wish to take part. There are many orders that hold to Masonic principles that can be joined so again there is no lack of choice.
So when a Lodge is opened , yes we call upon the highest authority to help and guide us. Why not, I do that driving my car ?
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 9, 2008 11:41:38 GMT
Bro Chris, I found exactly the same and that was one of the main reasons I left UGLE Freemasonry and joined LDH where such statements would be totally accepted and even by some taken as a given.
I did find a few Brethern such as yourself in UGLE who understood such matters, especially those in the Higher Degrees but, they were the minority and yes I also found some for whom a "Belief in a Supreme Being" was not sincere but something to which they paid lip service to gain admission, possibly because they had no knowledge of GOdF which has no such requirement or that they wanted to join what the man in the street perceives to be "The Masons" - in England UGLE.
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Post by maximus on Sept 9, 2008 12:12:26 GMT
Bro Chris, I found exactly the same and that was one of the main reasons I left UGLE Freemasonry and joined LDH where such statements would be totally accepted and even by some taken as a given. I did find a few Brethern such as yourself in UGLE who understood such matters, especially those in the Higher Degrees but, they were the minority and yes I also found some for whom a "Belief in a Supreme Being" was not sincere but something to which they paid lip service to gain admission, possibly because they had no knowledge of GOdF which has no such requirement or that they wanted to join what the man in the street perceives to be "The Masons" - in England UGLE. Yes, we know. "Anglo-American Freemasonry has it all wrong." *YAWN*
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 9, 2008 12:32:48 GMT
Bro Chris, I found exactly the same and that was one of the main reasons I left UGLE Freemasonry and joined LDH where such statements would be totally accepted and even by some taken as a given. I did find a few Brethern such as yourself in UGLE who understood such matters, especially those in the Higher Degrees but, they were the minority and yes I also found some for whom a "Belief in a Supreme Being" was not sincere but something to which they paid lip service to gain admission, possibly because they had no knowledge of GOdF which has no such requirement or that they wanted to join what the man in the street perceives to be "The Masons" - in England UGLE. Yes, we know. "Anglo-American Freemasonry has it all wrong." *YAWN* Hi Maximus I for one do not think that Anglo-American freemasonry has got it wrong. I do believe there is a fundamental lack of understanding within UGLE of the very basic rituals that are performed when opening and closing of Lodges. That is very much a personal opinion and one that I was trying to share with the Forum. On this thread Bill does not agree with me, Steve does (believe me Steve and I do not agree o everything!) and although Steve may seem to repeat himself over the fact he moved from one obedience to the other in all honesty is it a problem? I have met Steve masonically on a couple of occasions and his knowledge of Freemasonry is as good as anyones I have ever met, if you dont agree with him thats fine but please dont be quite as condescending as you have been in your last post Many thanks
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 9, 2008 12:38:24 GMT
I certainly do not agree with MP, we are not asked to accept God. We are asked to accept the existence of a 'supreme being', whom that deity is is your own choice. It could be the Egyptian Sun God 'Ra' or 'JHW' or 'Allah' or 'me', some think I am pretty supreme you know. [ask my Grand kids. The door is left so wide open I am perplexed as to how anyone can complain. The entire ritualistic living theatre is taken from the foundation stories of the Worlds thee most known religions, again I am perplexed as to why any Atheist would wish to take part. There are many orders that hold to Masonic principles that can be joined so again there is no lack of choice. So when a Lodge is opened , yes we call upon the highest authority to help and guide us. Why not, I do that driving my car ? Bill Okay swap God for Supreme Being (whichever one that you are invoking because please remember the words-Let us call upon the assistance of The GAOTU!). Why would anyone apart from someone who really doesnt believe (and it could therefore be argued that they should not be in the meeting according to UGLE Rules) be surprised when some members claim to of seen or felt the presense of entities? Why bother to try to invoke something if you do not believe? And if you do believe surely it should not come as a surprise?
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 9, 2008 12:58:23 GMT
Nope, there is only a requirement and that is at the point of entry into Freemasonry.
Do you believe in a supreme being? now Steve and yourself must have said at the time of interview, 'Yes I do'.
If at a later date you decide you have no belief in a supreme being then it is up to you and your Faith, to stay or not stay in Freemasonry under UGLE. To the best of my knowledge there is no system by which anyone can be turfed out of UGLE if it can be proved to not believe in a supreme being. It would be like a witchunt of course, that would not do at all. There are a few that might fit the bill , but I digress.
I do not believe I said anything about other people not being able to feel or not feel anything. That is their business.
I just believe, and it must be stated - it is just my belief, that I wish to keep my Faith and my Freemasonry separated. I think that the minute you bring any kind of mystic thoughts into Masonry, you open yourself and Freemasonry up to all kinds of criticism.
Freemasonry like it or not is often coupled with Occult, which to some means evil and destruction. The true meaning of occult means hidden. But the world will see what the world wants to see.
However we invoke the help of God on many occasions, I am one of those who can still remember school assembly, where prayers and songs were part of daily life, Boy Scouts, Girl Guides . Harvest festival, I seem to remember Billy Graham at some football matches, so it was, in my past, a common thing to ask your God for a bit of help. I have to say he never did all that much for me, when I asked to be rich, but you can't have everything, MP did OK though.
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Post by maximus on Sept 9, 2008 13:23:04 GMT
Yes, we know. "Anglo-American Freemasonry has it all wrong." *YAWN* Hi Maximus I for one do not think that Anglo-American freemasonry has got it wrong. I do believe there is a fundamental lack of understanding within UGLE of the very basic rituals that are performed when opening and closing of Lodges. That is very much a personal opinion and one that I was trying to share with the Forum. On this thread Bill does not agree with me, Steve does (believe me Steve and I do not agree o everything!) and although Steve may seem to repeat himself over the fact he moved from one obedience to the other in all honesty is it a problem? I have met Steve masonically on a couple of occasions and his knowledge of Freemasonry is as good as anyones I have ever met, if you dont agree with him thats fine but please dont be quite as condescending as you have been in your last post Many thanks I'm not intending to come across as condecending, and I like Bro. Steve personally, even if he dosen't care for me. The argument presented is similar, albeit much different in spirit, to that which has been used, ad nauseum, by the promulgators of ...certain breakaway organizations... that have caused much dissention here and on other boards. I know that is not the goal of this thread, so here are my viewpoints on the question. A ritual, of whatever kind, does raise energy, and attracts entities that are vibrationally in tune with the group mind. Those who perform ritual with focused intent will create a much clearer astral Temple than those who's intent is unfocused. Intent is key here, and the vast majority are unfocused because the intent of the ritual is vauge. What are the goals when a lodge is opened? The collective Wills of the participants must be in harmony in order for a ritual to raise power. Once power, or energy, is raised, it must be concentrated, directed and released. Above all, there must be a goal or target, a purpose, for that power, or energy, or it will simply dissapate. Now, the reason that Steve and others feel the energies in LDH Lodges is that the intent, training, and ritual structure are geared toward this, whereas the typical UGLE type Lodge is geared more toward a generic type of loosely religious-based structure. The main reason being Annie Besant's Theosophical background, which is why LDH is more overtly esoteric. If UGLE type Lodges were more aware of, and more focused upon, the inherent power that can be activated by focused intent of all present, especially of the Officers, the opening and closing rituals, and the degree ceremonies would be all the more effective. They are still effective as presented, working as they do at a subconscious level, speaking to us through the symbolism of Freemasonry, and resonating on the Inner Planes. The average Brother is not aware of this, because there is no comprehensive training to awaken the initiates inherent abilities, as there is in a G:.D:. or Thelemic Lodge, or a Wiccan Coven. Traditional "Anglo-American Masonry" has the potential to be much more than it is, but due to the overtly materialistic orientation of the avarage Westerner, it's potential remains untapped. Like Bill, I fail to see what benifit an Atheist derives from Freemasonry, considering it's inherent spiritual structure.
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 9, 2008 13:52:40 GMT
Bill
Thanks for your reply, I am happy to disagree with you on this one. it would be nice to know what others feel (And I am not opening myself up for criticism only the subject!).
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Post by middlepillar on Sept 9, 2008 13:54:03 GMT
I'm not intending to come across as condecending, and I like Bro. Steve personally, even if he dosen't care for me. The argument presented is similar, albeit much different in spirit, to that which has been used, ad nauseum, by the promulgators of ...certain breakaway organizations... that have caused much dissention here and on other boards. I know that is not the goal of this thread, so here are my viewpoints on the question. A ritual, of whatever kind, does raise energy, and attracts entities that are vibrationally in tune with the group mind. Those who perform ritual with focused intent will create a much clearer astral Temple than those who's intent is unfocused. Intent is key here, and the vast majority are unfocused because the intent of the ritual is vauge. What are the goals when a lodge is opened? The collective Wills of the participants must be in harmony in order for a ritual to raise power. Once power, or energy, is raised, it must be concentrated, directed and released. Above all, there must be a goal or target, a purpose, for that power, or energy, or it will simply dissapate. Now, the reason that Steve and others feel the energies in LDH Lodges is that the intent, training, and ritual structure are geared toward this, whereas the typical UGLE type Lodge is geared more toward a generic type of loosely religious-based structure. The main reason being Annie Besant's Theosophical background, which is why LDH is more overtly esoteric. If UGLE type Lodges were more aware of, and more focused upon, the inherent power that can be activated by focused intent of all present, especially of the Officers, the opening and closing rituals, and the degree ceremonies would be all the more effective. They are still effective as presented, working as they do at a subconscious level, speaking to us through the symbolism of Freemasonry, and resonating on the Inner Planes. The average Brother is not aware of this, because there is no comprehensive training to awaken the initiates inherent abilities, as there is in a G:.D:. or Thelemic Lodge, or a Wiccan Coven. Traditional "Anglo-American Masonry" has the potential to be much more than it is, but due to the overtly materialistic orientation of the avarage Westerner, it's potential remains untapped. Like Bill, I fail to see what benifit an Atheist derives from Freemasonry, considering it's inherent spiritual structure. Hi Maximus Great reply and not much I disagree with either!
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 9, 2008 14:22:12 GMT
Funilly enough, I do not disagree with Maximus' Second post on this subject either. He seems to have hit the nail on the head.
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Post by maximus on Sept 9, 2008 15:50:35 GMT
You know I love you, Steve. Er, not in a gay way or anything. Brotherly love. Yep, that's it. Ahem. (cough, cough)
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 9, 2008 16:28:02 GMT
Can I assure you I am not "GAY" , why I don't even do humour (or to you humor).
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Post by maximus on Sept 9, 2008 16:45:39 GMT
Can I assure you I am not "GAY" , why I don't even do humour (or to you humor). ;D If I didn't like you, I wouldn't play with you. I think I was a dog in a previous life.
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Post by lauderdale on Sept 9, 2008 17:12:41 GMT
Cats do not usually play with dogs. Instead we seek the high ground were Fido can't climb and hiss and spit at the mutt.
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Post by maximus on Sept 9, 2008 20:22:27 GMT
Woof!
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 9, 2008 21:26:25 GMT
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Post by maximus on Sept 9, 2008 22:36:45 GMT
A ritual, of whatever kind, does raise energy, ... I don't buy this. If you had said that it transforms the existing energy and patterns it to attract other related/patterned energy, I would buy it. Just specialised terminology. In Wicca and Ceremonial magick, it is referred to as "raising power." It is a traditional term. It means the same thing.
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