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Post by vajranagini on Dec 15, 2008 6:12:20 GMT
Anyone here into Gurdjieff? I only recently picked up "In Search of the Miraculous" by Ouspensky, and got interested in Gurdjieff. I have already read "Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson", and will be starting on it for the second time very shortly. I also just read Robert Shirley's book on Gurdjieff, which contained an interesting anecdote about the meeting of Aleister crowley and Gurdjieff, which took place in 1926, when Crowley was in his fifties. Apparently Crowley visited "Le Prieure" for a few days, and while he was there, he referred to Gurdjieff as a "great adept" (at least he gave credit where credit was due), but apparently did NOT make a good impression on him in the least. When Crowley's visit was at an end, and his departure imminent, Gurdjieff turned on Crowley and shouted at him "You dirty inside! Leave this place and never come back!" Crowley is said to have left "white-faced and shaking".
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Post by paulh on Dec 15, 2008 22:00:50 GMT
Gurdijeff is a very interesting person and achieved a lot. The question I have is whether he was able to teach effectively. It seems to me that he attempted to reproduce the symptoms of his consciousness in others, rather than establishing the causes
Many years ago I knew well half a dozen people who had spent a decade together following his exercises. My observation is that they had not made as much progress as would have occurred through other means
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 16, 2008 0:14:16 GMT
Other means? Like what, for instance?
I will say that Idries Shah says in his book "The Sufis" that exercises undertaken without the presence of a "Master" do not produce the proper effect and may even be detrimental. Evidently there is a certain "influence" that is transmitted from the "higher" to the "lower". I have heard of this "catalysing" effect elsewhere; even Israel Regardie spoke of it. He said that students who did the Middle Pillar exercise with him made much faster progress than those who did it on their own.
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Post by paulh on Dec 16, 2008 0:42:24 GMT
Other means? Like what, for instance? As you indicate the middle pillar exercise is valuable. More generally, and I am not an expert on Gurdijieff, I suspect his exercises where not sufficiently oriented to the transcendent. As for the presence of the Master, it is quite true that the apprentice "gets the hang of it" substantially by hanging around the tradesman. The presence of the skill-bearer allows the internal intelligences of the student to learn by alignment. This process may be intensified by intent and by direct transfer of energy containing the skill patterns. This may be observed occasionally in those encountering past lives - a sudden high level ability in a new skill
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 17, 2008 21:02:06 GMT
Hmmm, well, as I see it, his exercises were designed as PRELIMINARIES. If the psyche has not been suitably prepared, "transcendence' will simply unhinge it. In fact, I think this is the problem with most esoteric schools,and has been for some time now. Everybody rushes headlong into the esoteric stuff without a sufficient grounding and purification on the exoteric level. Gurdjieff's exercises work on the mind and teach it how to be conscious and aware; this does NOT happen overnight. In ancient schools, people worked at this sort of thing for YEARS before they were admitted to the higher levels, and of course, ritual "ordeals" were just that; failure generally meant DEATH. Nowadays everybody wants everything immediately, without anything resembling preparatory work, and God forbid it should interfere with television-watching, or partying, or require any sort of "self-sacrifice". It is then no surprise that people fail to obtain any sort of "positive result" in the absence of a "master", and even if there was one, I imagine most people nowadays would not be able to 'stick with it'. long enough to obtain a result.
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Post by paulh on Dec 17, 2008 22:51:58 GMT
Gurdjieff's exercises work on the mind and teach it how to be conscious and aware I think that may be the issue. I am not sure that the mind of itself is a path to the transcendent. It may be that something beyond the mind needs to be present that magnetizes the student And having been magnetized the student is thereby able to become conscious of parts of the mind that were previously hidden by the mind itself
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 18, 2008 4:30:11 GMT
Well, just like Gurdjieff says, people are ASLEEP-they are MACHINES. It is HARD WORK to 'wake up', and no real progress can be made until this is done. And just like he says, you need someone to HELP YOU WAKE UP. I have made some small progress in this direction on my own, but nothing like enough; one falls right back to "sleep" all too easily. And with the media influence around us, "awakening is made that much MORE difficult. Gurdjieff thought the problem was bad back THEN, BEFORE TV: imagine what he'd have to say about the sleepers NOW.
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Post by paulh on Dec 18, 2008 7:44:35 GMT
one falls right back to "sleep" all too easily. My question then is whether the falling back to sleep is accidental or induced by a hidden intelligence
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Post by maat on Dec 18, 2008 22:50:17 GMT
Well, just like Gurdjieff says, people are ASLEEP-they are MACHINES. It is HARD WORK to 'wake up', and no real progress can be made until this is done. And just like he says, you need someone to HELP YOU WAKE UP. You mean like the prince, whose kiss awakens princesses like Snow White and the Sleeping Beauty (Snow White was associated with 7 Dwarves, who worked in dark places (mines) searching for diamonds (light).) WHAT is the princess representing, WHAT is the prince representing? And while we are on fairy tales... Cinder-ella was a princess who was kept in the basement tending the fire place... hence the name. She was subjugated by 3. Kunda is the Goddess/princess who tends sleeping serpent 'fire' ,known as kundalini force, in the basement of the spine (in a triangular area called the sacrum ). There are 3 channels which need to be operative before this force can be awakened and rise. What time is it? What might the prince be? Maat PS the spinal column is comprised of 33 bones.
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Post by maat on Dec 18, 2008 22:51:55 GMT
And don't forget that Snow White (like the lambskin apron) was put to sleep by eating an apple (from ..E..V..E's tree/s?)
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Post by maat on Dec 18, 2008 22:55:17 GMT
Which brings us to widows and stepmothers...
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Post by maat on Dec 18, 2008 23:06:33 GMT
"I will say that Idries Shah says in his book "The Sufis" that exercises undertaken without the presence of a "Master" do not produce the proper effect and may even be detrimental. Evidently there is a certain "influence" that is transmitted from the "higher" to the "lower". I have heard of this "catalysing" effect elsewhere;"
If fairy tales can be a guide, the prince arrives to wake the princess ........ in nature, natural surroundings, 'protected' areas usually. Even Jesus before his great moment/s was either in a garden, in a wilderness, on a mountain top.
"Masters" are not necessarily visible to the human eye.
Maat
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 19, 2008 19:59:07 GMT
one falls right back to "sleep" all too easily. My question then is whether the falling back to sleep is accidental or induced by a hidden intelligence Well, Gurdjieff did say also, that "awakening' is not something that is in the "interest" of Nature; I have also heard a similar sentiment in Indian writings where it says that the devas are not happy when 'the cattle" (us) wake up and realize what is going on with us. The "devas" I believe to be the Planetary Archons, or archetypal Powers that run our lives, since to all intents and purposes, these are the closest "invisible influences" surrounding us. Once one becomes aware of the astrological currents, one can turn them to advantage, but you have to be AWARE of them. It is the old "marching to a different drummer" thing; someone who is "awake" sees life in a totally DIFFERENT fashion and has completely DIFFERENT priorities. That is why many saints and avatars ended badly; because their "awakened" approach to lifestyles and beliefs CLASHED with those around them (the sleepers) and those "sleepers" took GREAT EXCEPTION to the fact! Hence the injunction to 'the wise" to "wear the clothes of the land you find yourself in".
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Post by paulh on Dec 19, 2008 21:25:12 GMT
There may be several types of player interfering with the human mind and/or brain.
In addition we have Don Juan (in Castaneda's writings) explaining that the mind is a "foreign installation" In other words, what passes for the human mind is not human at all.
Personally I would be inclined to say that the human mind is dominated by an internal and hidden intelligence that defends itself by explaining to the unwitting human host that it (the controller) does not exist. And since the hidden intelligence is controlling the mind, the human is unable to use the mind to analyse the human's situation. Checkmate!
This situation is not necessarily improper as the hidden intelligence is very defensive and causes the human to get its "act together" in order to use the human to defend itself (hidden controller). Once the human has its "act together" there is the potential for awakening.
Then awakening may occur, but it is still rather rare
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 20, 2008 5:35:46 GMT
Well Crowley said that it had to do with the Planetary Archon Mercury. Mercury is, after all, the Trickster. In his book "Yoga" he says: "It must be remarked that because of his (Mercury's) complete indifference to anything whatever(and that thought is- when you get on far enough-only a primary point of wisdom) he is entirely unreliable. One of the most unfathomably dreadful dangers of the Path is that you must trust Mercury, and yet, that if you trust him you are certain to be deceived. I can only explain this, if at all, by pointing out that, since all truth is relative, all truth is falsehood. In one sense Mercury is the great enemy; Mercury is mind, and it is the mind we have set out to conquer."
It is an interesting fact that the magickal weapon" of Hod (the Qabalistic Sephirah ruled by Mercury) is the apron, as in "Masonic apron". Mercury is also the "patron saint" of oaths. Undoubtedly this fact has significance; the Three degrees of Blue Lodge Masonry represent Birth, Life, and Death, the three basis initiations of existence formalized into a ritual. When Mercury is "bound" by an oath such as one takes in a Lodge, I would imagine it makes a tremendous difference to whether he "helps" one or "hinders" one.
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Post by paulh on Dec 20, 2008 8:50:08 GMT
When Mercury is "bound" by an oath such as one takes in a Lodge, I would imagine it makes a tremendous difference to whether he "helps" one or "hinders" one. That is indeed an interesting thought: what is it that is bound by the obligation of the EA?
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 21, 2008 4:50:05 GMT
I guess you could say, it is the candidate and the Planetary Archon Saturn. It is a fact that freemasonry is rooted in Sufic tradition (according to Idries Shah) and all such organizations are ruled by Saturn. The Sufic "magic square" is the planetary square of Saturn. If one looks at the Tree of Life, it can be seen that Saturn, Mars, and Mercury all make up the Pillar of Severity. The power of Binah/Saturn , as it descends down the Pillar, changes its form, but remains essentially the power of Binah/Saturn.
If one studies old Masonic imagery, Saturnian imagery appears frequently. The skull and crossbones is a Saturnian symbol, as is the hourglass. The famous Masonic image of "The Monument" shows Saturn standing behind a young woman holding an urn, (sometimes it is a lamp or a sprig of acacia) and standing by a broken pillar with a book on it, as he untangles the ringlets of her hair. Since Saturn is the Lord of Karma, it stands to reason that Saturn would also be "in charge of" any organization having anything to do with spiritual evolution, since it alters one's karma rather drastically.
As an astrologer, I have made rather a close study of Saturn, from both the Eastern and Western perspectives. The funny thing is, is that when one studies Saturn, Saturn in its turn, begins to study YOU. This is of course true of ALL the planets, but Saturn is considered the "greatest" of the planets in Hindu astrology, since it has the most decisive and pervasive effect on one's life, and so having Saturn bend his gaze upon one has a DEFINITE and noticeable effect on one's life! .
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Post by maximus on Dec 21, 2008 5:54:19 GMT
While I agree with the Saturnian influence, I don't buy into the Sufiac origins of Freemasonry, simply because Idries Shah asserts it so. Freemasonry came out of Scottish operative lodges, and originally was heavily Christian. There are alchemical and Rosicrucian elements through the influence of the involvment of early speculative Masons, such as Ashmole and Newton, but I find it hard to swallow Sufi origins. This would require a direct connection to the Middle East, which would only be through Templar Transmission theory, which is pretty much discounted among experts nowdays.
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Post by paulh on Dec 21, 2008 6:02:48 GMT
I guess you could say, it is the candidate and the Planetary Archon Saturn. I suggest that the candidate contains multiple intelligences and only some of those attend to the obligation I am not at all sure that the Logos of Saturn or his/her representatives are bound by human obligations and all such organizations are ruled by Saturn. I suppose you mean ruled in the astrological sense, in which case the challenge is for such organisations to align themselves to stars - stars being strongly emphasised in Masonic imagery. No doubt you are aware of the Fraternitatis Saturni user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/saturn.htm Judging by Bardon's account, the relationship qualities of that brotherhood would not be well accepted in lodges that I know. If one studies old Masonic imagery, Saturnian imagery appears frequently. The skull and crossbones is a Saturnian symbol I suspect that the crossing may also be used in non-Saturnian ritual for example Mithraic. The famous Masonic image of "The Monument" shows Saturn standing behind a young woman holding an urn, (sometimes it is a lamp or a sprig of acacia) and standing by a broken pillar with a book on it, as he untangles the ringlets of her hair. I have wondered whether that is an adaptation of Isis finding the body of Osiris in the pillar made from an acacia tree but I would not like to be too definite. Since Saturn is the Lord of Karma, it stands to reason that Saturn would also be "in charge of" any organization having anything to do with spiritual evolution, since it alters one's karma rather drastically. I suggest that there are more lords of karma than that. The key is how karma exists as an energy and in whom that energy is embedded. The funny thing is, is that when one studies Saturn, Saturn in its turn, begins to study YOU. This is of course true of ALL the planets, but Saturn is considered the "greatest" of the planets in Hindu astrology, since it has the most decisive and pervasive effect on one's life, and so having Saturn bend his gaze upon one has a DEFINITE and noticeable effect on one's life! . I don't doubt that. But for myself I might pick another planet or perhaps a star Cheers
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Post by paulh on Dec 21, 2008 6:41:11 GMT
This would require a direct connection to the Middle East, which would only be through Templar Transmission theory, which is pretty much discounted among experts nowdays. Shah proposes that Richard the Lionheart was only initiated into the lower levels of Sufism. He says this accounts for the elementary nature of Masonic ritual and teachings. I am inclined to agree with his assertion as to the elementary nature of Masonry as we see it. Perhaps he is correct about Richard. I have seen Sufis referred to as green Christians and I note the Green Man is particularly evident at Rosslyn Chapel. Perhaps it is possible for Masonry to be Sufi and Christian at the same time
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