afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 23, 2009 18:23:08 GMT
A crosspost from www.thebluelodge.orgAs many of you are already aware there were elements within the Grand Orient de France that wanted to begin initiating female Free-Masons. A few of these lodges actually initiated a female in violation of the rules. The GOdF responded by suspending Charters and Masons. After being notified by the GOdF that certain members of the GOUSA may have been involved, the Council of the Order of the GOUSA took immediate action by suspending those involved and pulling one lodge's Charter. The GOdF and the GOUSA feel that there must be three distinct types of Masonry available to people: Masculine, Feminine and Mixed-Gender. Further, that each of these various forms must have mutual respect for the others and act in amity with them. The actions taken by both the GOUSA and GOdF are in accordance with this philosophy. Jeff
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vtmason
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Running Dog Lackey
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Post by vtmason on Mar 23, 2009 18:51:12 GMT
huh.
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afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 23, 2009 18:55:17 GMT
It is my guess that this is to explain the departure of John Slifko as GM of the GOUSA and the order entirely. This is also to explain the departure of their Los Angeles lodge.
The Los Angeles lodge has stated they demitted. now according to the GOUSA they gave them the boot for initiating women.
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afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 24, 2009 16:20:40 GMT
If this is indeed true I find it highly disturbing. Seperate but equal is never OK. I find it to be a offensive to both Masonic morality and ethics.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 24, 2009 16:22:27 GMT
A crosspost from www.thebluelodge.orgAs many of you are already aware there were elements within the Grand Orient de France that wanted to begin initiating female Free-Masons. A few of these lodges actually initiated a female in violation of the rules. The GOdF responded by suspending Charters and Masons. After being notified by the GOdF that certain members of the GOUSA may have been involved, the Council of the Order of the GOUSA took immediate action by suspending those involved and pulling one lodge's Charter. The GOdF and the GOUSA feel that there must be three distinct types of Masonry available to people: Masculine, Feminine and Mixed-Gender. Further, that each of these various forms must have mutual respect for the others and act in amity with them. The actions taken by both the GOUSA and GOdF are in accordance with this philosophy. Jeff It seems this message has now been promptly removed from that direct link for some reason! It seems to be impossible to find out the straight truth in regards to anything having to do with this group. This bothers me very much. It makes them impossible to recommend, to anyone.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 24, 2009 17:04:39 GMT
The GOUSA lodge in Paris; Lodge Thomas Paine now seems to be an ex-GOUSA lodge. Where they given the boot or did they leave of their own free will and accord?
They seem to be inline with the booted Lodge Intrepid. Lodge Intrepid has a website with zero contact information. How are potential candidates supposed to contact them?
I really wanted to believe in the GOUSA but that bad smell seems to be getting worse and worse.
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Post by brandt on Mar 24, 2009 19:29:03 GMT
Lodge Thomas Paine is a Triangle operating under Lodge Intrepid. The Lodge goes, so goes the Triangle. It is unfortunate but that is the way it works.
Brandt
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afterthought
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A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 24, 2009 20:09:31 GMT
Brandt, It would be nice if you could verify the as to the question being asked. Was Lodge Intrepid's charter removed because they decided to include women?
I also read that your GM Peace stated the reason for the "seperate but equal" stance of the GOUSA has to do with ritual. This IMHO is a horrible excuse. Most Co-Masonic lodges around the world do not use any "feminized" ritual. In fact most use the Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite.
Real clarity and truth would be appreciated. I know that you wish to keep matter private but when issues become public honest and straight answers would be appreciated.
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Post by penfold on Mar 24, 2009 20:50:02 GMT
They might be appreciated, but that don't make them compulsory, ultimately the recent events are a matter for GOUSA and it's members alone.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 24, 2009 21:16:41 GMT
In the end you may be right Penfold. This is begining to look like a course in the mismanagement of a great idea.
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Post by penfold on Mar 24, 2009 21:23:50 GMT
All ideas have their time - maybe this wan't the right one for this idea - I have no doubt that the idea will return, either under it's current presentation or a brighter incarnation in the infinity that is time
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Post by brandt on Mar 24, 2009 22:40:03 GMT
Brethren, I don't think that I am going to be much help here. Architekt, I went to the Blue Lodge forum and the entire thread is still right there so I am not sure what you are talking about. If there is something wrong with the link from this forum, I don't have any control over that.
Afterthought, I can give you my philosophy on the subject and it is not necessarily "separate but equal." There is a certain dynamic that is inherent to an all male Lodge. This would also require that there is a certain and equally unique dynamic that is inherent to an all female Lodge. Since both of these have there place and are equally valid a mixed gender Lodge is also has a unique dynamic. Neither is better than the other in general terms. It is up to the individual and what they seek.
Penfold, I appreciate your understanding on this matter. I am not going to speak on it. The word is out and that is how it is going to stay as far as I am concerned. I am often asked for transparency from Brethren that want nothing to do with us or me except to heap scorn upon. They can do that without my help, it is part of the reason that I am less than active on Masonic forums anymore.
What things look like from a small piece of information and what they are when the whole picture is seen from the inside are often two different things. Regarding our Brother Jeff Peace. Many of you know him, he is a good man. I will be the first to admit that he has, in the past, let his passions get the best of him. I will ask you to take notice that he has also not been heard from at all often as of late. He is quite busy. I would ask you to also note the manner in which he has been handling the business that has been public. He is doing a good job. If he wasn't I would be on his case.
The manner in which the Grand Orient of the United States is governed makes this significant as the Grand Master of the GO USA is not a dictator that can do as he wishes.
Now to the "Mr. Peace" comment. He is a Mason, I expect him to at least be addressed as so. If you can't do so I would ask that you not cast any aspersions on him as he is not here to defend himself.
I will lay out this offer; come visit us. Most of our Lodges have non-tyled functions often so you won't be hung by your intestines for sitting and breaking bread with a Brother. We are still your Brothers though I have noticed a distinction being made lately. Come on by, you will be received as a Brother when you show up. We have Brothers and Sisters visit often. We are always happy to receive another and extend our Chain of Union.
This idea is still in its time. We don't put out a bunch of news because some just don't care to hear it. Strange enough this model of Masonry seems to resonant quite well. We are growing. My Lodge (for example) is stuck with a good problem to have. Since we only initiate one at a time how do we handle the paper on the desk right now.
Frat.·. Brandt
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Post by maat on Mar 25, 2009 2:17:01 GMT
Young grand lodges, old grand lodges, grand lodges we don't like to talk about .... sounds like your average family situation to me!
Remember the 'terrible two's?' Remember when you wanted to leave home? Remember when they wanted to leave home? Time usually sorts things out and the generation gap diminishes.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 25, 2009 2:19:25 GMT
Bro.Brandt, I want to thank you for your post. I do have to say that I still have a big problem with the GOUSA's "male only" policy when taken to the extreme as to expel members. One would think that a new Order who has had as it's core platform as one of change would be able to adapt to 21st century conditions when called upon.
I had an issue with Bro. Peace's explanation of the "seperate but equal" (sorry that is still how I see it) being based on the fabrication of difference in Ritual. I'm sorry but unless you are talking about the Rite of Adoption I just don't buy that. So, by that being a "made up" justification for exclusionary practice it leaves a stain regarding the GOUSA, in my view anyway.
I have no doubt that the "energy" of an all male lodge may be attractive to many. By that way of thinking an all "white" lodge may be attractive, or an all "Christian" lodge. I am sure you see where I am going here.
The exclusion of 50% of humanity is inexcusable in my view. It really bothers me that a new "tradition" that was supposed to be based on progressive ideals would intentionaly decide to to root itself in the regressive practice of mysogeny.
One other point that is a bit of unsolicited advice. It seems that when it comes to the GOUSA the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. At least in outer order communications. You may want to fix that.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 25, 2009 2:20:55 GMT
Young grand lodges, old grand lodges, grand lodges we don't like to talk about .... sounds like your average family situation to me! Remember the 'terrible two's?' Remember when you wanted to leave home? Remember when they wanted to leave home? Time usually sorts things out and the generation gap diminishes. But shouldn't men of elightenment be above such profane struggles?
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 25, 2009 2:25:56 GMT
It would seem that this may be an overspill from the well publicised female initiation argument that has been reported from the GOdF.
Is it an internal matter ? well in my opinion no it is not.
If you state that you wish to influence society, then you are a party to that society and what you do and say and how you conduct yorself is a matter of public concern.
What is alo a concern to me is the idea that no matter what happens it is nobodies fault. Three Grand Masters in as many years is a concern. If it happened in any other GL it would be of the same concern.
GO USA can not have it both ways - we are all part of the same Brotherhood - but what we do is our business and no one else's. Ask yourself what would you all be asking if this were say UGLE or the GL of California or any of the States.
Jeff Peace is entitled to the same respect that would be shown to any other Brother, but it is not and never has it been, nor should it ever become a 'Get out of Jail card'.
To gain respect you have to earn it. I believe Brother Peace can do that and this comes from a Brother that has been called every name imaginable by Brother Jeff. I believe in his belief in Freemasonry.
It is like when you hear a politician say 'its not my fault' you know full well he is up to his armpits in something. Like it or not Bro. Brandt you are in the business of propaganda, internally or externally, your up to your armpits, it is the nature of the beast. It may be how you deal with it which may be the difference between success and failure.
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afterthought
Member
A true initiation never ends. -Robert Anton Wilson
Posts: 242
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Post by afterthought on Mar 25, 2009 4:59:41 GMT
There are some who have a Utopian vision of Freemasonry. Shouldn't they? Freemasonry is an enlightenment school after all.
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Post by parisfred on Mar 25, 2009 11:13:36 GMT
Talking about masonic membership is there, in english, a difference of meaning between : to suspend, to expel and to resign ?
thanks for your help.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 25, 2009 12:08:23 GMT
To suspend and to expel - is an action taken by a group to an individual or group. [Example: you are expelled from this forum or you are suspended from this forum]
To resign - is an action taken by the individual. [example: I resign from this forum]
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Post by middlepillar on Mar 25, 2009 17:44:40 GMT
Brethren, I don't think that I am going to be much help here. Architekt, I went to the Blue Lodge forum and the entire thread is still right there so I am not sure what you are talking about. Frat.·. Brandt It seems to me that it is not there now. If it is please confirm. If it is not then that begs questions. It is there, I have just read it. Could we please stop this crap and just discuss things worth discussing. It is this Forums Policy not to allow any attacks on any Grand Lodge. If this carries on I will interpret it as an unnecessary attack. Bro Brandt, thank you for you patience and your efforts in informing us with us much as you feel comfortably able to do. As always I wish you well brother.
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