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Post by freefalcon on May 1, 2009 0:34:47 GMT
I posted this question in a religious forum and would also like to post it here because I would like to get some other opinions.
The question is this: I have been told by many people that Jewish people and Muslim people believe in the same God. However, just as many people have told me otherwise. I have recently read that Allah is really a moon god and not the same god that is worshiped by Jewish people. Is this why so many of the flags of Middle Eastern Muslim nations display the crescent moon?
Can anyone provide some clarity on this subject?
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Post by maximus on May 1, 2009 0:48:38 GMT
Allah was originally Muhammed's tribal god. Each tribe had it's own local god, and kept a rock idol in the Kabba in Mecca. Muhammed's father was the keeper of the idol house. The piece of metoric iron that is venerated today in the Kabba is the rock that represented Allah, the others having been removed.
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Post by maximus on May 1, 2009 0:49:24 GMT
Oh great, now we have a Muslim dating site ad at the top.
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Post by freefalcon on May 1, 2009 1:03:02 GMT
Allah was originally Muhammed's tribal god. Each tribe had it's own local god, and kept a rock idol in the Kabba in Mecca. Muhammed's father was the keeper of the idol house. The piece of metoric iron that is venerated today in the Kabba is the rock that represented Allah, the others having been removed. So in other words the two religions believe in two different Gods?
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Post by maximus on May 1, 2009 1:06:37 GMT
The Muslims believe that their god is the same as the god of Abraham, but history shows otherwise, in my opinion.
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Post by paulh on May 1, 2009 3:03:35 GMT
Elohim - a common name for God/s in the OT - has no clear derivation in Hebrew (probably an imported word). It seems to be a female word Eloha with a male ending -im
Now the E does not exist in Hebrew being our translation of Aleph, so the word is aloha.
The vowel O is not represented in the word so it is written as alha - and we all know that there is no god but Allah.
And both religions are descended from Abraham so we should not be too surprised if they have the same god.
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Post by freefalcon on May 1, 2009 3:11:44 GMT
I was asking around and a few people told me that there is no god of the Old Testament because the Old Testament is just a derivative of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
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Post by maat on May 1, 2009 4:33:23 GMT
Elohim - a common name for God/s in the OT - has no clear derivation in Hebrew (probably an imported word). It seems to be a female word Eloha with a male ending -im Now the E does not exist in Hebrew being our translation of Aleph, so the word is aloha. The vowel O is not represented in the word so it is written as alha - and we all know that there is no god but Allah. And both religions are descended from Abraham so we should not be too surprised if they have the same god. Aloha = Hawaii which is said by some to be where one of Egypt's 'lost tribes' now live. Many Hawaiian and ancient Egyptian words are similar. (Maxwell Freedom) Long took a syncretistic New Thought approach. One of the primary themes in his books is that the kahuna were not unique to Hawai’i. They were the Hawaiian version of an esoteric priesthood that was also found in ancient Egypt. Indian yogis, Christ and Buddha were adepts in these universal principles. Huna incorporates religion, psychology, and psychic science. It claims the ancient belief concentrated mainly on "positive thinking," that this belief was maintained and preserved in the islands of Polynesia, but lost to the rest of the world and contaminated by outside forces, and only recently has begun to resurface.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huna_(New_Thought)Just thought this was interesting. Small world. Maat
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Post by AndyF on May 1, 2009 5:41:06 GMT
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Post by penfold on May 1, 2009 10:01:51 GMT
Chick Publications are possibly the most odious of the evangelical christian tracts and publications out there, I'm not very comfortable about having links to them on the forum, but that is my personal opinion not my 'Admin' opinion I'm also not so certain about people expounding what are ultimately nothing more than personal theories as facts
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Post by AndyF on May 1, 2009 11:53:04 GMT
Chick Publications are possibly the most odious of the evangelical christian tracts and publications out there, Agreed, they illustrated my point beautifully, hence why I posted them. I'm also not so certain about people expounding what are ultimately nothing more than personal theories as facts I'm not sure if that was directed towards me, but I clearly stated I did not have the facts. I merely pointed out that if you're getting two diferent stories, it might help you sort fact from fiction if you look at who is telling you which version, and why they might be doing that.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on May 1, 2009 15:55:08 GMT
I was asking around and a few people told me that there is no god of the Old Testament because the Old Testament is just a derivative of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Freefalcon, you ought not to listen to a lot of things that people say, and that goes double for folk you might meet on the Internet - present company excepted, natch ;D
So, if the Old Testament comes from Dead Sea Scrolls (it's actually the other way around, but let's leave the archaeological facts for the moment), why does that invalidate the Old Testament but validate the Dead Sea Scrolls?
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on May 1, 2009 15:58:13 GMT
Oh yeah, and I just LOVE Jack Chick publications! It's like they took all the branches of the stupid tree and ground them down into the wood that made his head I once posted a p!ss-take I did of Jack Chick's anti-Masonic comic. Even I couldn't stop laughing, and I made it!
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on May 1, 2009 16:54:45 GMT
Oh yeah, the question... The question is this: I have been told by many people that Jewish people and Muslim people believe in the same God. However, just as many people have told me otherwise. I have recently read that Allah is really a moon god and not the same god that is worshiped by Jewish people. Is this why so many of the flags of Middle Eastern Muslim nations display the crescent moon?
That's really three questions. Let's take that one question at a time.
I have been told by many people that Jewish people and Muslim people believe in the same God. That's right, they do. The same one that Christians believe in, too. In fact, technically speaking, as Divinity is One, and there really is only the one big blob of Godness, it's really the same God that every religious person worships, under one name or another. But we'll leave that for now.
I have recently read that Allah is really a moon god and not the same god that is worshiped by Jewish people. Jehovah seems to have been a moon god himself, originally (and he wasn't a bachelor boy in those days, either), so there's no reason they couldn't both have been worshipping the same god. But, back in those days, gods tended to be very local in scope.
Is this why so many of the flags of Middle Eastern Muslim nations display the crescent moon? Actually no, but you are thinking, and that's a good sign. Those Middle Eastern nations (Turkey, Iraq and Iran typically) used to worship deities associated with the sun and the moon, and the national/religious symbol on their flags used to be the sun with a star and three crescent moons; but when they converted to Islam, this was altered to a star and crescent (perhaps to suggest the Prophet Muhamad's night journey to Mecca). Because of this pre-Islamic association, there are still devout Muslims who refuse to consider the star-and-crescent design as a symbol that other Muslims should use to identify themselves.
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Post by maximus on May 1, 2009 17:41:50 GMT
Oh yeah, and I just LOVE Jack Chick publications! It's like they took all the branches of the stupid tree and ground them down into the wood that made his head I once posted a p!ss-take I did of Jack Chick's anti-Masonic comic. Even I couldn't stop laughing, and I made it! The Curse of Baphomet is my favorite. I used to find those things laying about everywhere. Someone used to leave them in the New Age section of the bookstores.
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Post by penfold on May 1, 2009 20:26:45 GMT
Chick Publications are possibly the most odious of the evangelical christian tracts and publications out there, Agreed, they illustrated my point beautifully, hence why I posted them. I'm also not so certain about people expounding what are ultimately nothing more than personal theories as facts I'm not sure if that was directed towards me, but I clearly stated I did not have the facts. I merely pointed out that if you're getting two diferent stories, it might help you sort fact from fiction if you look at who is telling you which version, and why they might be doing that. Not directed at anyone, and definitely not you Andy, just thinking out loud...
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Post by penfold on May 1, 2009 20:28:03 GMT
Eloquent posts as ever ruff
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Post by billmcelligott on May 1, 2009 22:03:58 GMT
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Post by billmcelligott on May 1, 2009 22:21:36 GMT
Does not matter what anyone thinks, there is no doubt, the Koran speaks of Ibrahim, Isaac and Ishmael, the Torah speaks of Abraham Isaac and Ishmael.
Until recent years the Muslim concept was that the Jews started with God, Jesus was the first revolution in that Religion and Mohamed was the second. Indeed the Muslim population around the Mediterranean was very tolerant of Hebrew and Christian Communities. There were periods of Christian then Muslim dominance but in all they managed to keep a reasonable staus quo. well for that period in history it was quiet. did you know that at one point the Muslim controlled lands reached within 200 miles of Paris ?
The word that always causes problems is 'crusade'.
Anyway back to the plot:
Koran [2.124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He. [2.125] And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves. [2.126] And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination. [2.127] And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing: [2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
Bible: Genisis 17 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."
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Post by penfold on May 4, 2009 8:53:16 GMT
I concur Bill, the three 'big' montheistic religions, i.e. Judaism, christianity and islam, all share the same 'God' (Allah, Yahweh)
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