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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 19, 2009 22:07:30 GMT
Now lets get some reality checking here.
It is very nice of you Brad to tell us all what is wrong with our Freemasonry.
I tested this out last night a long drive home with my Wife, I asked her would she like to be a Freemason, she said no. would she like to come to a Lodge meeting, she again said no.
You see your argument pre supposes that women wish to become involved in Malecraft Freemasonry. It is a false premise. In my experience they are just not interested.
The inter visitation rules are there, so long as they are there I will not attempt to visit a Co Masonic Lodge. In your scenario I am doing something wrong, I say I am not. The same would apply to visiting any non recognised Lodge.
In my opinion if you had the power to enforce the inclusion of the orders above , what you are in fact doing is making all Freemasonry Co Masonic.
If you were successful I believe you would see millions leave Freemasonry for good. Or to be more precise they would set up another not so open group to which they would make sure the decision making would be left to them and them alone..
There is no respect in forcing your views on to other people. it has never worked and will never work. It is a dangerous road to travel and will only bring those that constantly propose these enforced changes trouble and grief.
You make these sweeping statements with no authority to say them
There is no such symbolism in my Freemasonry, you may wish it to be so , but it is not accepted by the vast majority.
There is love and respect for women throughout Malecraft Freemasonry, in the ritual and in the heart of every Husband, Father and Brother. But to listen to your rhetoric the outside world would think we hate females, that we just want to keep them out.
I would lay down my life for my Wife, my Daughter and my Granddaughters in a second. They do not want to attend my Lodge meetings.
So I must presume you wish some other Female to attend my Lodge meetings. No matter if I wish to sit in Lodge with them or not. This will not happen, faced with an order to force me to be in a Co Masonic Lodge I would leave Freemasonry. Not because I do not like females, not because I do not like Co Masonry, because it is dictatorial to make people do things they object to.
You see your argument is flawed because the individual can go join a Co Masonic Lodge, the Fraternity of Freemasonry is not stopping anyone who wishes to be in Lodge with Females. If it were you have a point, but there is nothing holding any individual to mainstream Freemasonry. Any member may leave and join your Lodge or Co Masonry Lodge any time they wish. Just as Steve did.
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Post by youngwolf on Jul 19, 2009 23:24:46 GMT
Some excellent points made here. I believe that each organization should decide for themselves. If certain members do not like this, they can try to change the rules from within, leave and join another organization or leave and form a new organization.
They key here is that as freemasons we are advocates of freedom, not tyranny.
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 19, 2009 23:57:36 GMT
Now lets get some reality checking here. It is very nice of you Brad to tell us all what is wrong with our Freemasonry. I tested this out last night a long drive home with my Wife, I asked her would she like to be a Freemason, she said no. would she like to come to a Lodge meeting, she again said no. You see your argument pre supposes that women wish to become involved in Malecraft Freemasonry. It is a false premise. In my experience they are just not interested. The inter visitation rules are there, so long as they are there I will not attempt to visit a Co Masonic Lodge. In your scenario I am doing something wrong, I say I am not. The same would apply to visiting any non recognised Lodge. In my opinion if you had the power to enforce the inclusion of the orders above , what you are in fact doing is making all Freemasonry Co Masonic. If you were successful I believe you would see millions leave Freemasonry for good. Or to be more precise they would set up another not so open group to which they would make sure the decision making would be left to them and them alone.. There is no respect in forcing your views on to other people. it has never worked and will never work. It is a dangerous road to travel and will only bring those that constantly propose these enforced changes trouble and grief. You make these sweeping statements with no authority to say them There is no such symbolism in my Freemasonry, you may wish it to be so , but it is not accepted by the vast majority. There is love and respect for women throughout Malecraft Freemasonry, in the ritual and in the heart of every Husband, Father and Brother. But to listen to your rhetoric the outside world would think we hate females, that we just want to keep them out. I would lay down my life for my Wife, my Daughter and my Granddaughters in a second. They do not want to attend my Lodge meetings. So I must presume you wish some other Female to attend my Lodge meetings. No matter if I wish to sit in Lodge with them or not. This will not happen, faced with an order to force me to be in a Co Masonic Lodge I would leave Freemasonry. Not because I do not like females, not because I do not like Co Masonry, because it is dictatorial to make people do things they object to. You see your argument is flawed because the individual can go join a Co Masonic Lodge, the Fraternity of Freemasonry is not stopping anyone who wishes to be in Lodge with Females. If it were you have a point, but there is nothing holding any individual to mainstream Freemasonry. Any member may leave and join your Lodge or Co Masonry Lodge any time they wish. Just as Steve did. Bill, My wife wants nothing to do with Freemasonry either. Now, she is an active Theosophist. She loves history and activism, she hates ritual .I don't know why it is what it is. Now to assume that because of our own most close physical circle that all women do not wish to be Freemasons is a pretty strong generalization of the worst order IMHO. Now, what is worse is that you do not recognize the feminine symbolism found within what you practice. What do the columns B & J represnt? Why does an EA lead with the left foo? Someone who has as much experience in the Craft as should really know these things. And yet these are but two examples of the sacred feminine in Freemasonic ritual. Love and Light,
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Post by brandt on Jul 20, 2009 0:56:15 GMT
All you have to do is join. From there you could exercise some influence in changing things. I mentioned to another Brother on this particular thread the same thing that I will say to you now. You may be surprised by the number of Brothers that do agree with you on this matter. You are not likely to get much agreement with the concept of shoving an ideal down another's throat. Perhaps it would be easier and more effective to approach the logistics of making these types of changes? Sure, you have already stated that it should have happened 100 years ago. It could have but it didn't. So we have to work from right now.
Brandt
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Post by youngwolf on Jul 20, 2009 1:29:27 GMT
No sir, the topic is whether one person has the right to tell freemasons how to practice their craft.
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Post by youngwolf on Jul 20, 2009 1:57:52 GMT
People may actually agree with you if you did so.
BTW, I apologize to all members of this forum for responding the way that I did. I should have never gone down to that level.
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Post by brandt on Jul 20, 2009 2:10:55 GMT
Okay Brad, you know how to get ahold of me.
Brandt
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 20, 2009 2:19:37 GMT
Okay Brad, you know how to get ahold of me. Brandt And visa versa. Love and Light,
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 20, 2009 7:10:17 GMT
OK , I have deleted half the posts on this section.
now I don't normally delete anything, but this was just getting stupid.
Name calling and insults are agin the rules, if the rules are not respected then, I will do something else I do not usually do and issue warnings then suspensions.
Now play nice and show all the traits you seem to expect from Freemasons, other Freemasons it seems. Lets be really big and show those traits instead of demanding them from others.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 20, 2009 7:27:10 GMT
magusmasonica said:
Just as it a strong generalization to say they do. However on the basis that less than .01 % of the world population are Freemasons it seemed a reasonable argument to me.
J and B are exactly what they are said to be in the ritual as described in the Bible. The EA leads with the left, representing the left hand pillar. for centuries Soldiers have led off with the left foot, leaving access to the stronger right arm in case of attack. The shield was carried on the left arm leaving the right arm to carry the sword.
Lead with the left to establish the course you are to take.
I know many things, Brad, they just do not coincide with what you think.
Now I do not say you are wrong, I just say that it is wrong to portray Freemasonry as you wish it to be.
You are quite welcome to say: in my form of freemasonry we believe this , or that. But it is the same as when you said freemasonry is Occult, it may be to you, but to the vast majority it is not. To the vast majority it should not be mixed gender.
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Post by whistler on Jul 20, 2009 9:21:44 GMT
This is a hardy annual that comes back again and again. If Co-Freemasonry is so good - Co-Masons should polish their ashlar and make Co_freemasonry so attractive that Malecraft Lodges want to join them - simple really
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 20, 2009 9:56:44 GMT
Bro Youngwolf, you are correct that no Masonic Body should be FORCED to admit women if that is not the wish of the majority of its members. Much as I would be delighted to see this change happen in UGLE, I would NOT want to see the European Court of Human Rights etc used as the sledgehammer to batter down the doors of Freemasons Hall in Gt Queen Street. As I have said already the wish for change must come from within and not be imposed.
On your other point of someone wishing change to join and work from within, I can tell you in the 18 years of my having been a member of UGLE, that it is almost impossible for one or even a number of ordinary Brethren to bring about any change in that Organisation. It is top down not bottom up. The mechanics simply do not exist to for the Brethren in the Columns to change anything, though a PGM (as was the case with the dropping of Traditional Penalties of the Obligations some years ago), could be more successful. UGLE is an Oligarchy not a Democracy. PGMs etc are appointed and not elected, the current Grand Master, the Duke of Kent, has been in that Office for 42 years now and will probably die in office. He is elected on the nod every year and not contested and can de facto remain in office as long as he wishes. This lack of democracy and the non-involvement of the Ordinary Member was one of the subsidiary reasons for my leaving UGLE three years ago and joining Le Droit Humain which is far more Democratic, where Lodges have considerably more autonomy and where the type of Freemasonry and how it is practised is far closer to what I was seeking than that of UGLE. I found in UGLE that the only matters which the ordinary member gets to vote on are the Master for the coming year, usually only one name and that of the Senior Warden, and on such matters as an Increase in subs, and of course the Ballot for Initiates and Joining Members. They are not involved in the Governance of the Institution in any way.
That having been said, I have found that the majority of UGLE Members who I have encountered or who's postings I have read on Fora such as this are either totally indifferent to this or actually LIKE the Oligarchical way that UGLE is run, and who am I to deny them that? I voted with my feet and am far happier for so doing, I assume they are equally happy- for the most part- with the status quo?
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 20, 2009 19:39:33 GMT
Bill, I find it very sad that you would walk out on the Craft should a woman be initiated in your lodge.
Shouldn't the criteria be if a candidate is good for the Craft and if the Craft would be good for the candidate?
I know that the only thing that can seperate myself from the Craft is death.
Love and Light,
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Post by billmcelligott on Jul 20, 2009 21:37:50 GMT
Brad , you have a wonderful capacity to hear what you want to hear.
What I said was I am not prepared to have that decision forced upon me. I can of course join Co Masonry if I wished to go that route. That is if they would have me.
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 20, 2009 22:19:08 GMT
Hopefully, the day will come where a candidate is judged on aptitude. Not gender, race, sexual preference, religion, or lack of religion.
Love and Light,
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Post by youngwolf on Jul 20, 2009 22:52:12 GMT
Bro Youngwolf, you are correct that no Masonic Body should be FORCED to admit women if that is not the wish of the majority of its members. Much as I would be delighted to see this change happen in UGLE, I would NOT want to see the European Court of Human Rights etc used as the sledgehammer to batter down the doors of Freemasons Hall in Gt Queen Street. As I have said already the wish for change must come from within and not be imposed. On your other point of someone wishing change to join and work from within, I can tell you in the 18 years of my having been a member of UGLE, that it is almost impossible for one or even a number of ordinary Brethren to bring about any change in that Organisation. It is top down not bottom up. The mechanics simply do not exist to for the Brethren in the Columns to change anything, though a PGM (as was the case with the dropping of Traditional Penalties of the Obligations some years ago), could be more successful. UGLE is an Oligarchy not a Democracy. PGMs etc are appointed and not elected, the current Grand Master, the Duke of Kent, has been in that Office for 42 years now and will probably die in office. He is elected on the nod every year and not contested and can de facto remain in office as long as he wishes. This lack of democracy and the non-involvement of the Ordinary Member was one of the subsidiary reasons for my leaving UGLE three years ago and joining Le Droit Humain which is far more Democratic, where Lodges have considerably more autonomy and where the type of Freemasonry and how it is practised is far closer to what I was seeking than that of UGLE. I found in UGLE that the only matters which the ordinary member gets to vote on are the Master for the coming year, usually only one name and that of the Senior Warden, and on such matters as an Increase in subs, and of course the Ballot for Initiates and Joining Members. They are not involved in the Governance of the Institution in any way. That having been said, I have found that the majority of UGLE Members who I have encountered or who's postings I have read on Fora such as this are either totally indifferent to this or actually LIKE the Oligarchical way that UGLE is run, and who am I to deny them that? I voted with my feet and am far happier for so doing, I assume they are equally happy- for the most part- with the status quo? Bro Lauderdale, I realize that working from within probably would not work in the UGLE so I agree with you that voting with your feet was the only option. I experienced the same phenomenon in Georgia although over different issues. I tried from within and saw that I was in the minority. I also agree that most of the masons in the UGLE are probably happy. Therefore, how masonic of me would it be to make them unhappy by forcing them to integrate?
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Post by brandt on Jul 20, 2009 23:00:14 GMT
To force a Masonic body to become mixed may come from good intentions. Unfortunately it lacks a moral basis. I have spoken with many people about mixed gender Masonry. Very few want to force it on anyone.
Brandt
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 20, 2009 23:02:20 GMT
Bro Mc Eligott, I for one would never wish to force Co-Masonry on you for one moment. You are happy with your type of Freemasonry and I am with mine. I consider that Freemasonry is big enough to accommodate Co-Masonry, Women Only and Male Only Freemasonry. I feel that GOdF may have an ideal compromise. They do not Initiate Women into their Lodges but are happy to have Women Masons as visitors in the Meetings. I have sat in a Meeting of a GOdF Lodge with Bro Cora and one of our very distinguished Lady Members.
Force is not the answer, enlightenment is!Bro Bill, I hope you live long and stay healthy to enjoy your Freemasonry and that God , the Great Architect of the Universe, grants me the time and health to do likewise
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Jul 21, 2009 1:46:49 GMT
Some of the best people that I know are lady Masons that I have had the great pleasure to visit with. Most of this is now done via groups on Facebook, but the question of recognition has never come up as it is a non issue for what we are looking to accomplish.These girls have a much different Freemasonry than me, and they are just as fascinated by me. Seek first to understand, then to be understood
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 21, 2009 1:58:47 GMT
Bro Mc Eligott, I for one would never wish to force Co-Masonry on you for one moment. You are happy with your type of Freemasonry and I am with mine. I consider that Freemasonry is big enough to accommodate Co-Masonry, Women Only and Male Only Freemasonry. I feel that GOdF may have an ideal compromise. They do not Initiate Women into their Lodges but are happy to have Women Masons as visitors in the Meetings. I have sat in a Meeting of a GOdF Lodge with Bro Cora and one of our very distinguished Lady Members. Force is not the answer, enlightenment is!Bro Bill, I hope you live long and stay healthy to enjoy your Freemasonry and that God , the Great Architect of the Universe, grants me the time and health to do likewise Bro.Steve, This is a very interesting situation. I really to be honest with you I just don't get it. If women are allowed to visit what is the harm in allowing them to set foot on the chequred pavement? deleted as in my opinion in very poor taste. think before you typeLove and Light,
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