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Post by roman on Jul 26, 2009 3:08:16 GMT
What are the chances and or reasons that one wouldn't be accepted into Freemasonry?
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Post by paulh on Jul 26, 2009 8:35:01 GMT
Being blackballed is pretty rare in lodges that I know.
If it occurred it would usually be that either the candidate or his/her proposer had a poor reputation amongst some lodge members.
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 26, 2009 8:43:45 GMT
Roman, the reasons for rejection of a potential Candidate could be many and various. Most GLs and Obediences have rules which would preclude certain applicants, the most common being that they had a record of some serious criminal offence. They are asked to disclose same on their application form.
Then there is the Interview, in UGLE Lodges by the Lodge Committee, in LDH separately by two experienced Brethren, often Past Masters, in GOdF they are brought into the Lodge under blindfold and questioned by the Brethren and a very searching questioning it is too, I have been in a GOdF Lodge and witnessed it. Failure in these Interviews would usually lead to a Candidate being rejected.
Then of course they have to pass the Ballot in Open Lodge. This is a truly secret ballot even more so than voting in an election as the balls are anonymous. In most Lodges one Black Ball can be overlooked, two often results in the Master calling for another ballot "In case any Brother has made a mistake" but if that has the same result then the Candidate is rejected. Three Black Balls is an automatic rejection. I would also add that if someone does blackball a candidate they should never disclose that or the identity of anyone else so doing should they discover it. In nearly 21 years as a Mason I have only once seen a Candidate blackballed in a Lodge where I was a Visitor. I subsequently found out that there were some Brethren in that Lodge with whom he had done business and there were unresolved "issues" between them and him.
Now as to reasons for a Candidate being rejected. The example I have given could be one, let us say a bad reputation known to some of the Lodge's Brethren voting in the Ballot. They could come across badly at the Interview, either cocky and arrogant or the opposite as having no sensible motivation for wishing to become a Freemason. Again the reason they state could be wrong, someome saying "I feel that being a Mason will help my business, or help me get on in Politics " etc would be rejected.
Many GLs such as UGLE require that a Candidate has a belief a Supreme Being thus an Atheist would be rejected. Grand Orient de France (GOdF) however do not have that requirement.
Roman, I hope this is of assistance. As I say I have only once seen a Candidate being blackballed, it does not happen very often.
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Post by humbleseeker1 on Jul 26, 2009 14:16:50 GMT
I have lived in Iowa 2 years and just recently became a apprentice Mason. I was worried about the same thing. My mentor is a Past Master and told me that if they blackball someone, they probably shouldnt be there.
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 26, 2009 15:21:36 GMT
Architekt, it will come as no suprise that yet again I disagree totally with you. Why have a secret ballot if it is not there to be used if necessary? Is it to be just another empty gesture with the ordinary Brother in the Columns rubber-stamping the decisions of the Lodge Committee or in my Obedience of the two Brethren who interviewed the would-be candidate.
In an ideal world your suggestion that they contact the Lodge Committee, Secretary or the Proposer or Seconder of that person before the Ballot might have some merit. Unfortunately we do not have an ideal world and in the real one there could be circumstances where the objector to that candidate could compromise their employment, cause disharmony in their family or which could result in other unfortunate consequencies. As an example say that the objecting Brother worked with the prospective candidate. They could well suffer at work were they to openly object. Again their work could put them in possession of information about that candidate the disclosure of which could result not only in loss of their job but possible prosecution, for example were they a Police Officer, Solicitor, Doctor etc who because of their employment knew of something undesirable about that candidate. The secret ballot , which as I have said is far more secret than voting in an UK Election, protects the individual brother and the Lodge from the possibly entry of an undesirable person. Long may it be freely available for use when necessary by Brethren without fear or favour.
So far I have not yet had to blackball any candidate in almost 21 years as a Freemason and have only seen it happen once but if I had to I would do so, and I would not do it lightly, and would keep that matter heled in the sacred repository of my heart to be communciated to nobody else.
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 26, 2009 16:55:05 GMT
The secret ballot, and its inviolable secrecy, could well be the last defence of the West Gate and for that reasons I support it.
As to having the would-be Initiate outside the door of the Temple whilst they are being balloted for, I deplore that practice for the reason you state, far better to ballot for them at the previous meeting to that of their intended Initiation. I do however feel that far greater embarassment could well arise were the complaining Brother to publicly object, resignations from the Lodge, factions and other disharmony could ensue.
I have not, as yet, blackballed a candidate, the closest I came many years ago now was to take the balls given me by the Deacon but I did not put any in the box as my reasons for disapproving of that candidate were personal and subjective. In the event they passed the ballot and were Initiated but dropped out of Freemasonry within a year and whilst still an EA so I feel my doubts about their suitability were confirmed.
Although it no longer affects me in any way, I am glad that UGLE, whatever it may prefer, has left the secret ballot alone, to be used if the need arises by any Brother with no fear of being punished in any way for exercising their vote as they think fit. Let us hope the ballot in a Masonic Lodge never becomes a "Mugabe Election", a mere formality with the result fixed in any way.
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 26, 2009 17:45:04 GMT
Now there's a turn up for the books, I actually find myself in agreement with Architekt on his latest posting on this thread!
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 26, 2009 18:50:54 GMT
A "black ball" can happen for any reason actually. It is a secret ballot so no justification is warrented. This is a practice that IMHO is antiquated and needs to be done away with.
That being said it is pretty rare. It is much more common for someone to be voted in and then for his "Brothers" to look for a reason to kick him out.
Love and Light,
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 26, 2009 19:31:18 GMT
You have me confused now Bro Brad. You say that the process, of the secret ballot I presume, is antiquated and should be done away with. What then would you put in its place?
If the ordinary Brother in the columns has no other right it must surely be that of being able to reject someone whom they feel is unsuitable for their Lodge. I feel very strongly about this right especially as to me a Masonic Lodge is of deep purpose and significance. A Brother must have no fear of recrimination when casting their ballot and the balls, or in some jurisdictions, cubes, are totaly secret whereas a paper ballot could disclose the identity of a voter by their handwriting or especially if the papers were numbered in some way.
As a matter of interest, Bro Brad, what process does your Masonic organisation follow regarding prospective members?
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Post by magusmasonica on Jul 26, 2009 19:45:58 GMT
You have me confused now Bro Brad. You say that the process, of the secret ballot I presume, is antiquated and should be done away with. What then would you put in its place? If the ordinary Brother in the columns has no other right it must surely be that of being able to reject someone whom they feel is unsuitable for their Lodge. I feel very strongly about this right especially as to me a Masonic Lodge is of deep purpose and significance. A Brother must have no fear of recrimination when casting their ballot and the balls, or in some jurisdictions, cubes, are totaly secret whereas a paper ballot could disclose the identity of a voter by their handwriting or especially if the papers were numbered in some way. As a matter of interest, Bro Brad, what process does your Masonic organisation follow regarding prospective members? A petition is presented. An open discussion on the petition is given in lodge. The "investigation comittee" is assigned. Every member of the lodge is open to be a member, those who decline understand that the result is then up to the investigation comittee. The investigation comittee then gives their evaluation and based on this the WM decides to accept or reject the candidate. Our "investigation" of the candidate could mean a conversation with every single member of the lodge. Love and Light,
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Post by brandt on Jul 26, 2009 22:13:10 GMT
We (Euclid) have at least three investigations and if there is anything that would interfere with the zeitgeist of the Lodge then the individual is simply rejected for membership. We don't even allow a petition to come across unless two members of our Lodge know and approve of the individual. It can take 9 months to a year to be initiated into our Lodge. This is not to say that an individual cannot be a Mason, we have sent people to other Lodges. We just have our own thing so to speak and we don't want that to be disrupted. If a man doesn't fit he just doesn't fit. If we black ball him it does cut off other avenues through which he could benefit.
Brandt
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Post by humbleseeker1 on Jul 27, 2009 2:48:17 GMT
Forgive my ignorance I agree with background checks but isnt freemasonry about making a person better. I may be wrong about this but dosnt the WM have the power to remove a person from the order if they dont work out or continue in ways that are not appropriate. Many of the Masons new me and still they sent a committee. it took me about 4 months since I petioned before I became an initiate.
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Post by generatics on Jul 27, 2009 3:55:15 GMT
i've yet to see anyone get rejected. and even though they are my Brothers now, there are a few that i probably would have requested a bit more inspection on had i thought it would make a difference. my biggest beef with letting basically anyone off the street join the lodge is not one of social or moral or legal questionability. it's simply that i'm not convinced these guys are there for the right reasons, or i should say, for any reason at all. i'm on the inspection committee and i get some silly answers now and then. first thing i always ask is "what brings you here?" and when i hear stuff like "i saw it on tv and it looks cool" or "i inherited a ring and want to wear it" or "i was in fraternities in college" then it makes me think twice.
we're raising these guys 3 and 4 and 6 at a time, which i think is just absurd. and the way i see it is the one guy that has his heart in it is really losing out when the initiation is compromised in that way. frankly i'd just as soon see the other two not there. furthermore, we are told before every vote that casting a black cube is considered a serious offense, one worthy of suspension, and we should never do it. instead, if we have a genuine issue with a potential candidate we should instead address the WM privately. pretty much heaves the secret ballot out the window at that point though.
as architekt says above, "degree mill" is a good description in my area.
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Post by youngwolf on Jul 27, 2009 5:48:43 GMT
generatics,
Although I didn't personally experience it, I did know a couple of brothers in a lodge who saw the same phenomenon. Most of these brothers were raised went to the Shrine and were never heard from again. It is not out of the realm of possibility in the US GL's to have a lodge of two hundred members where only ten show up. This isn't the norm but it does exist.
My lodge is similar to Brandt's(shock!). We take a great deal of time with each candidate to see not only if they are worthy of becoming a Mason but more importantly do they fit into the egregore of the lodge.
I've seen many potential candidates come and go by simply answering their inquiries to membership with the question, "Why do want to become a Mason?". Many simply never reply.
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Post by lauderdale on Jul 27, 2009 15:43:05 GMT
Bro Geriatrics, I have no wish to in any way insult your Grand Lodge but I have never heard such a silly rule as "..furthermore, we are told before every vote that casting a black cube is considered a serious offense, one worthy of suspension, and we should never do it. Why then have a Secret Ballot in the first place? There is no logic in such an attitude and to me that would be as bad as , last November, someone being told, "You have a free vote but if you vote for Obama rather than Mc Cain you will be punished" in effect a Mugabe or North Korean Election.
I have not as yet in nearly 21 years as a Freemason ever Blackballed a Candidate and I hope I never have to, but if I did there is no one on the face of God's Earth who could stop me casting my Secret Ballot, Black or White as my conscience required or who get me to reveal how I had voted.
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Post by generatics on Jul 27, 2009 20:36:39 GMT
@lauderdale: ha i know i'm getting older but Geriatric!? not quite yet. ha, gave me a good laugh. and no insult taken. i agree with you completely. i can't say for sure that it comes down from the GL or not as i've never been in a ballot outside of my own Lodge. i wonder if at one point they had a problem with blackballing or maybe someone unfairly kept out. no idea really. i hold no ill will to them, just don't agree with everything that happens there. takes all kinds i guess.
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Post by roman on Aug 10, 2009 21:10:28 GMT
I hope that this doesn't sound like I'm being paranoid, but I submitted my check with my petition over a month ago and it still hasn't been cashed. I was told when I submitted that the lodge wouldn't be meeting or considering new members until September. I understand that this all takes a certain amount of time, but is it a bad sign that my check hasn't been cashed?
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Post by maximus on Aug 10, 2009 21:29:58 GMT
Not a bad sign. The Lodge may have "gone dark" for the summer, and won't be able to vote on your petition until they reopen. The check won't be cashed until you are voted up or down.
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Post by roman on Sept 30, 2009 23:27:48 GMT
Being blackballed is pretty rare in lodges that I know. If it occurred it would usually be that either the candidate or his/her proposer had a poor reputation amongst some lodge members. The investigation committee came Sunday and all went well, but before they left I expressed concern about an issue with certain members of my family. I was told not to worry that it is the individual that is considered and not members of the family. But they did mention that if the proposer hasn't been to many meetings or hasn't participated for some time, that, that might pose a problem. As it happens i mention this to the fellow who gave me my petition and he now tells me he hasn't been involved for some time AND he actually never had a desire to be a Mason in the first place. He joined because his father wanted him to. He also leaves me with the impression that he will not attend the vote and if I am accepted he most likely wouldn't attend my EA. Needless to say this all comes as a great disappointment. To think that I may be blackballed for a reason that is completely out of my control.
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Nosameerf
Member
Masonic Saturday Night Fever!
Posts: 74
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Post by Nosameerf on Oct 2, 2009 8:04:55 GMT
Hi Roman, If you are concerned you should contact them. They will most likely be glad that you are ready and keen to begin your Freemasonry. It took me a couple of months before I heard anything solid when I first applied. BTW, don't worry about being blackballed, unless your a known sex offender etc. Cheers, Nosameerf
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