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Post by whistler on Mar 14, 2006 18:18:35 GMT
We do not have a problem in our ritual the RWM tells the says " I must warn you that the traditional form of the O.... comes down to us from ancient times ...... you will repeat the ancient form as we have all repeated it." So in effect tha candidate has the origins explained, and also knows that all around have said the same words...
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Post by whistler on Mar 14, 2006 19:00:14 GMT
Is it just me who reads these kinds of topic and thinks of Garth in Wayne's World (i.e. "Live in the now!")? Ignoring for the moment that we've all agreed (or sworn, for some of you) not to try to change Freemasonry, why is there so much wailing and gnashing of teeth about water that has already passed by under the bridge? This week I've read of recent grudges (as illustrated in this thread) and grudges held for 200 years (though I concede they could be weak justification for much more recent grudges). Am I simply being naive when I ask why can't we just live with things as they are, rather than constantly complaining and bickering about what's already been done? Jumile Just found this and couldn't resist from the Schaw Statutes - IIt will be noted that the mason failing to satisfy the Warden is fined What a bloody tough rule Perhaps changes can be good after all
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Post by gladiator on Mar 15, 2006 1:53:15 GMT
No I wasn't kidding. I really believe that the old ways are the true ways, but like everything else in the world, Masonry seems to be just another victim of political correctness. What secrets are left? Everything can be found on line or in books. No one seems to take their obligations very seriously. Just my opinion, based on my experiences thus far. I' am not into liberalism or its ideology. Like I said before I belong to the 18th Century. I hope this doesn't get erased. Eric
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Post by maat on Mar 15, 2006 3:13:59 GMT
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Post by maat on Mar 15, 2006 3:16:38 GMT
Everything can be found on line or in books. What if 'the secret' is incommunicable? Not able to be put into word or letter?
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Post by maat on Mar 15, 2006 3:25:42 GMT
I hope this doesn't get erased. Eric 'Erasing' and 'rubbing the wrong way' - there has to be a good line there somewhere - but I just could not find it You're pretty safe here Eric - your opinion is as valid as ours. PS - that was nice offering to help Suli with his questions.. Maat
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Mar 15, 2006 7:25:17 GMT
Everything can be found on line or in books. What if 'the secret' is incommunicable? Not able to be put into word or letter? Maat, you are fully right. Secret from secretum, that is ex se cernere, the result of an interior work which is thesaurized by the initiate. Man cannot reveal it even if he is willing to so act.
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Post by corab on Mar 15, 2006 12:24:14 GMT
No I wasn't kidding. I really believe that the old ways are the true ways, but like everything else in the world, Masonry seems to be just another victim of political correctness. I think actually carrying out the ancient charges would rather clash with the laws of the country ... And none of what can be found there describe the actual secrets. Nothing can, because they are unique to each individual Mason. That, perhaps, is the greatest mystery of all. 'No one' is a rather sweeping range, Brother. I assure you that I hold my Obligation to be sacred and take its implications to heart and mind. Cora
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Post by taylorsman on Mar 15, 2006 12:45:07 GMT
Bro Cora. I agree that the true secret of Freemasonry lies within each individual Mason and would quote a line from the Mark Degree (as worked in England) and which is repeated in some of the Higher Degrees. "To he that overcometh I will give a white stone and on that stone a new name written unknown to all but he who receiveth it"
As to the observation of their Obligation, that too is variable. Some Brethren will not even admit that they are "on the Square" to anyone who is not a Freemason, a few will tell anything, and most such as myself only consider themselves bound not to divulge the Signs, Tokens and Words as those are what we have sworn to hele within the sacred repository. Yes, these are all available in the Public Domain on the Internet and in print and have been so for over 50 years now but even reading and learning "Darkness Visible" cover to cover will not make the reader a Freemason, that comes alone from within, and is the TRUE secret. Alas some do join and even reach high rank but do not achieve this.
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
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Post by staffs on Mar 15, 2006 17:43:01 GMT
No I wasn't kidding. I really believe that the old ways are the true ways, but like everything else in the world, Masonry seems to be just another victim of political correctness. I think actually carrying out the ancient charges would rather clash with the laws of the country ... And none of what can be found there describe the actual secrets. Nothing can, because they are unique to each individual Mason. That, perhaps, is the greatest mystery of all. 'No one' is a rather sweeping range, Brother. I assure you that I hold my Obligation to be sacred and take its implications to heart and mind. Cora Could the Inner gaurd be prosecited for Threatening behaviour with intent ? Just a thought ?
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Post by corab on Mar 15, 2006 22:09:27 GMT
Could the Inner gaurd be prosecited for Threatening behaviour with intent ? Just a thought ? Not unless the candidate goes out to spill the beans and we all know what that means, don't we? Oh wait - you lot don't have the ancient penalties anymore ;D Anyways - back to serious mode. I think it'd be highly unlikely that such a case would ever make it to Court, on the basis that the individual wilfully placed himself in that situation. He allowed himself to be h..w..d and a c.. t.. put around his n... - after he's read the candidate prep card telling him about this, no less - no sane judge or jury will go along with anything like threatening behaviour, or even, heaven forbid, actual bodily harm (that s... i... is damn sharp!). Bottom line - not a chance. Cora
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Post by gladiator on Mar 15, 2006 22:34:47 GMT
Please don't take my negativity so seriously. I guess I'm just a little disappointed and frustrated with Masonry in general. I have had some bad experiences in recent months. It may be only this area of the U.S., but I so few Brothers actually take the time to come to meetings and take part in ritual work, that I often find myself wondering why. Maybe they don't feel that it is important. In Connecticut we have the penalties in our obligations, but of course it is then explained that it is only figurative and that only suspension and expulsion are implemented as a penalty. Why explain that? Let the new brothers wonder about it. Maybe they would feel that masonry is really something that should be taken with all seriousness. I've seen people taking cell phones out during meetings, as well as other other electronic devices. I have heard talking and laughing at more than one lodge during meetings and rituals. This is all very inappropriate and it seems as though many brothers just see it as a club or night out. It's really discouraging. Many lodges are really short of members and have to call others to help with degree work. More than a few have gone dark over the last few years. I myself was raised with three others of whom I never have seen since. This is also very disheartening. I was told that I would get out of Masonry exactly what i put into it and I believe I put in a lot. I'm in the line and now Senior Stewart, I also take parts in the 15th, 17th , and 19th degrees of Scottish Rite. I never miss meetings or rehearsals. I just think that if the penalties were real that it may have some impact on people's attitudes towards the craft and who knows I may actually get some help with meals once in a while. lol
sorry for ranting. Eric
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Post by corab on Mar 16, 2006 12:49:26 GMT
Bro. Eric, Please don't take my negativity so seriously. Why ever not? How are we to work towards an improvement in the situation you (and others, elsewhere) describe if we don't take each other's feelings seriously? It bothers you - your 'negativity' deserves to be heard and given serious thought. It's not just the US, and it's not just UGLE-amity Masonry - it's probably one of those things that really do unite all Orders, although we could do without it. My Lodge is only a small Lodge, and because there are only few LDH Lodges in the country, we all have to travel quite a bit to get there. Our RWM and IPM have to come all the way from France! Last meeting we had special dispensation to continue with less than 7 Officers present - luckily we didn't need it, but the fact that it was requested tells a lot. I am the only active one out of four EAs at the moment and we have no FCs, so I find myself literally the Benjamin amidst MMs, each and every one of whom is an Officer. I could feel over-awed by that, but my Lodge is a warmhearted, loving Lodge, and so I feel very cherished with all these experienced men and women willing to guide me. Where am I going with this? Well, I took my Obligation not 'just' before TGAOTU, but also before these men and women, my Brethren. I made a promise to them, and I intend to keep it. My Obligation did have the Ancient Penalties, but they are not what induce me to keep my Obligation - it's the love and respect I bear these people and my steadfast refusal to let them down. It's the bond we share, and the more effective penalty of losing that bond that does it. Bringing back the Ancient Penalties either in word or actual will never change anything - improving the quality of the experience in Lodge will. And I think each and every one of us is responsible for that. I think ending this post with my Lodge's motto would say it all: "The Light is within you; let your Light shine". S&F, Cora
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Post by cheyham on Mar 16, 2006 12:58:34 GMT
Bringing back the Ancient Penalties either in word or actual will never change anything - improving the quality of the experience in Lodge will. And I think each and every one of us is responsible for that. Cora You are spot on - never a truer word was spoken. To keep discussing "bringing back" something that is still in the ritual and still communicated to the candidate for each degree, although in a slightly different way, is a complete waste of time and energy. Why that energy and time cannot be devoted towards improving the quality of the experience as you so perfectly put it is beyond me.
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Post by pastmasterchris on Mar 16, 2006 13:40:41 GMT
Chris 1986 or thereabouts was when it was. The penalities are still communicated to the Candidated - they have not been removed from the ritual. In HFAF the decision was taken to follow UGLE in respect of the traditional penalties used in the Craft degrees, but I think it was more a question of expediency as we used Universal ritual and obviously the ritual books were changed. However it may interest you to know that we still use the Ancient Penalties in both Mark and RA and we still give the Mystical Lecture explaining the 3fold word. s & f Chris Chapman
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Post by maat on Mar 19, 2006 23:38:06 GMT
I was Initiated 30 years ago this month under the old, traditional wordings. I didn't for one second think that those terrible, blood curdling, things would happen to me if I failed in my promise. But what IF there are REAL PENALTIES attached to inappropriate behaviour? Not of the blood curdling variety - but just as real physically & psychologically! Scientists are now coming to the realisation that we have two brains... the one we usually equate with which resides in the cranium and the other, wait for it ... which resides in the heart! And is brought into play when positive, non aggressive thinking comes into play. LOVE. To become perfect men we must establish and maintain this Heart/Mind connection. Experiments are demonstrating that the brain of the heart is far superior and when acted upon yields POSITIVE results all round, including, at the physical level, improved health. Far fetched? Above we have a possible way or improving ourselves physically and mentally - not to mention a way, whereby, if carried to the en th degree, we can personally experience the Highest. Surely the prize or secret that we seek. Let us test the hypothesis against the tracing board of Masonry. What do the first two degrees concentrate on? What are the penalties(signs) attached to 'not paying attention and following instructions given?' The second is particularly illuminating in this regard. Look at it in two parts. Not convinced - for those of you in the Rose Croix. How about H..H..H.. Maat If you have not noticed - in this scenario - the penalities are not inflicted by anyone else but ourselves. So be careful lest you cut your connection.
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Post by maat on Mar 19, 2006 23:46:24 GMT
I will see if I can find more details re the science bit and I will post them in the Secrets of Science and Nature thread.
Now there is a thought - it was only by doing what I was instructed to do - seeking out the secrets of science and nature that I came across this shining gem on in-sight into the meaning of the penalties. I'm a slow learner it only took 15 years!
Is there a better case for NOT tampering with ancient instructions and penalties?
Those that do not understand will want change and will dilute the brilliance of the ancestors by their current (temporary) ignorance and leave us only with a jumble.
Maat
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Post by maat on Mar 20, 2006 0:12:58 GMT
I am the only active one out of four EAs at the moment and we have no FCs, so I find myself literally the Benjamin amidst MMs, each and every one of whom is an Officer. I could feel over-awed by that, but my Lodge is a warmhearted, loving Lodge, and so I feel very cherished with all these experienced men and women willing to guide me. This is a perfect example of the Heart/Mind connection! Wonderful Cora! How sad that there are three EA's that may not benefit from their Initiation. Just a thought Cora, run it past your Master, how would you like 'to twin' with our Lodge. I will obviously have to run it past our Lodge also. But I can see where we could share P of A's etc. Moral support if you like. OUr Lodge in pretty good in the Heart/Mind sphere also. Cheers Maat
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Post by maat on Mar 20, 2006 23:21:00 GMT
Another synchronistic happening...
Whilst trying to fathom the symbol and allegory of Ruff's posting about Samson and Delilah on the Beehive thread - I came across this piece in Geoffrey Hodson's book - Hidden Wisdom in the Holy Bible Vol 1
"Hair is the symbol of the effective relationship between Spiritual Soul (the heart is said to be the seat of the Soul) and the mind-brain. When this is severed the power and the guidance of the inner Self are lost to the outer man, who becomes a slave to matter and the senses (Delilah)."
Going on he explains that "..when man attains to equilibrium between the pairs of opposites (the pillars), limitation (the temple) upon consciousness are dissipated and undesired qualities (the Philistines) are destroyed."
Apparently the name Samson means 'shining like the sun' and Hodson equates this as a symbol for the Divine Will. He says "When, by the practice of comtemplation, the Divine Will in man, his source of spiritual power and light, (the sun) is bought to its maximum power (the midst of the Heavens) over mortal man, it enables him to overcome the enemies of the Soul (Gibeonites) and attain serenity."
Maat
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Post by capquest on Mar 21, 2006 11:56:08 GMT
Here in Florida USA we have all the penalties in all three degrees with no hint of them being symbolic.
PS to Matt. I lived in Jamaica for many years and the Rastafarians have the Samson and Delilah story as one of the validations of "dreadlocks"
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