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Post by stepnwolf on Nov 24, 2009 0:37:56 GMT
I have read this thread with great interest but the initial post has me perplexed somewhat. The author states: You cannot, seriously cannot be a Craftsman without an basic understanding of why things are the way things are within universal Masonic cosmology. BC One of the great glories of freemasonry is that the the rough ashlar of any simple craftsman can be made smooth without this knowledge. If he be a good man (or woman) and true, the craft can and will do its work of knocking off the superfluous excrescences, as the Mark degree puts it. The great work involves the whole man (or woman) and not just his or her intellectual attainments. Undue emphasis on knowledge may lead to an elitism where I know and you poor souls don't. This was the pitfall of gnosticism in the early Christian church, one that the craft has so far avoided -- to some extent. Some of the BB may be intellectually gifted, but these pursuits are not essential. On the other side is the mystic who says in his heart, "I suffer more than you do." It's not an easy path in any case and the greatest threat to it seems to be ego. As the Preacher says in Ecclesiastes, "vanities of vanities, all is vanity." At one point in our ceremonies our feet are placed between B & J, at the beginning of the middle path. We may rise through Beauty to attain the Crown or we may take a more circuitous route, the decision is ours, but I wouldn't say the knowledge of the inner side is essential or even desirable.
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Post by assassin on Dec 8, 2009 14:26:45 GMT
Correlation does not imply causality. If I understand this correctly I have to study QBL (from a book I assume) to understand masonry then masonry itself is not worth studying and I could just go with QBL. Is that the hypothesis that is being offered as fact?
Hassan ibn Sabbah
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Post by sid on Dec 9, 2009 21:52:10 GMT
There is also the Arabic equivalent of the Hebrew QBL but personally I would not measure Masonry with either, because there are many subjects of interest to study upon the path and you are working in the same building. Correlation does not imply causality. If I understand this correctly I have to study QBL (from a book I assume) to understand masonry then masonry itself is not worth studying and I could just go with QBL. Is that the hypothesis that is being offered as fact? Hassan ibn Sabbah
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Post by assassin on Dec 10, 2009 13:55:37 GMT
My point exactly. We can talk about individual paths and such but this thread was not presented in such a way. It was presented as an absolute certainty that QBL is required in order to understand masonry.
Hassan ibn Sabbah
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Post by methuselah on Dec 12, 2009 8:13:59 GMT
It was presented as an absolute certainty that QBL is required in order to understand masonry. It was. And, it's not.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 12, 2009 23:52:27 GMT
I have read this thread with great interest but the initial post has me perplexed somewhat. The author states: You cannot, seriously cannot be a Craftsman without an basic understanding of why things are the way things are within universal Masonic cosmology. BC One of the great glories of freemasonry is that the the rough ashlar of any simple craftsman can be made smooth without this knowledge. If he be a good man (or woman) and true, the craft can and will do its work of knocking off the superfluous excrescences, as the Mark degree puts it. The great work involves the whole man (or woman) and not just his or her intellectual attainments. Undue emphasis on knowledge may lead to an elitism where I know and you poor souls don't. This was the pitfall of gnosticism in the early Christian church, one that the craft has so far avoided -- to some extent. Some of the BB may be intellectually gifted, but these pursuits are not essential. On the other side is the mystic who says in his heart, "I suffer more than you do." It's not an easy path in any case and the greatest threat to it seems to be ego. As the Preacher says in Ecclesiastes, "vanities of vanities, all is vanity." At one point in our ceremonies our feet are placed between B & J, at the beginning of the middle path. We may rise through Beauty to attain the Crown or we may take a more circuitous route, the decision is ours, but I wouldn't say the knowledge of the inner side is essential or even desirable. Oh I couldn't disagree more. Why is the average "lifespan" of a Master Mason three years? Why does the Masonic population decrease 10% every decade? My answer is because they did not know what they where getting into and once they where in no one knew where to go. The pillar of severity, the feminine, the static is at the left (EA,) Boaz. the pillar of mercy, the fluid, the masculine is and the Right (FC) Jachin. The received, the middle pillar, from Markuth to Daath is represented in the lodge. Does this not make a difference in operative work? Love and Light,
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 13, 2009 9:59:47 GMT
I have read this thread with great interest but the initial post has me perplexed somewhat. The author states: One of the great glories of freemasonry is that the the rough ashlar of any simple craftsman can be made smooth without this knowledge. If he be a good man (or woman) and true, the craft can and will do its work of knocking off the superfluous excrescences, as the Mark degree puts it. The great work involves the whole man (or woman) and not just his or her intellectual attainments. Undue emphasis on knowledge may lead to an elitism where I know and you poor souls don't. This was the pitfall of gnosticism in the early Christian church, one that the craft has so far avoided -- to some extent. Some of the BB may be intellectually gifted, but these pursuits are not essential. On the other side is the mystic who says in his heart, "I suffer more than you do." It's not an easy path in any case and the greatest threat to it seems to be ego. As the Preacher says in Ecclesiastes, "vanities of vanities, all is vanity." At one point in our ceremonies our feet are placed between B & J, at the beginning of the middle path. We may rise through Beauty to attain the Crown or we may take a more circuitous route, the decision is ours, but I wouldn't say the knowledge of the inner side is essential or even desirable. Oh I couldn't disagree more. Why is the average "lifespan" of a Master Mason three years? Why does the Masonic population decrease 10% every decade? My answer is because they did not know what they where getting into and once they where in no one knew where to go. The pillar of severity, the feminine, the static is at the left (EA,) Boaz. the pillar of mercy, the fluid, the masculine is and the Right (FC) Jachin. The received, the middle pillar, from Markuth to Daath is represented in the lodge. Does this not make a difference in operative work? Love and Light, MM I could not disagree with you more! If I was an outsider reading the above for the first time, I would probably think you were completely mad! I can only speak for The Freemasonry I know in UGLE. And it has many routes for many different types of aspirant. What you state is in my opinion so elitist in its attitude (if you cannot understand my version of Freemasonry you will never be able to 'get' it). Freemasonry teaches many things, for those that want to pursue the knowledge of the kabbalah it will indeed help and assist. If I was to say to you, you will never be a proper mason because you cannot understand the true message of Freemasonry which I believe to be the reintegration of mankind with God through the Christ. You would be insulted (and probably rightly so!). You can be as proud of your masonic system as you wish, there are many here who are genuinely happy for you that you have found a system that suits you. Please do not keep throwing you cannot know this or that unless you understand this or that at us. it is simply not correct. I have travelled down far more paths than the average mason, it does not make me any better, not have I found one system that has it all. They all teach useful lessons. Tolerance is one of the best lessons exemplified by Freemasonry and I wish more people actually understood how Freemasonry teaches it along with controlling ones ego. If you can master these two lessons you are seriously a long way along the correct path. And you do not need to know a basic understandin of kaballah to do this. UGLE gives every Freemason the opportunity to develop there understanding of it, in whatever direction they wish, some choose not to develop at all but just enjoy the very first level, and I have never thought that these masons are any way inferior to any who choose to look further. At the same time I feel it is totally wrong for anyone who feels he has attained the 'real' secret or reason for Freemasonry to write off all of those that do not see things his way, to me that is 'unmasonic'! Tolerance and control of the ego, in my opinion the 2 most important characteristics of a good Mason
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Augur
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Travelling salesman. Roamin' profit.
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Post by Augur on Dec 13, 2009 15:44:35 GMT
UGLE gives every Freemason the opportunity to develop there understanding of it, in whatever direction they wish, some choose not to develop at all but just enjoy the very first level, and I have never thought that these masons are any way inferior to any who choose to look further. Agreed! Freemasonry is a rich and deep system and has many aspects to it. The most important part of Freemasonry, imho, is the part that expects you to work on yourself and make yourself better so that you might a better Brother, neighbour, son and husband. The Qabbalah is not going to help you achieve this. To focus on the Qabbalah is to almost miss the point entirely, actually. Are there elements of the Qabbalah in Masonic ritual? Sure. It's very neat and pretty too. But the ritual is not all of Freemasonry. The real meat of Freemasonry doesn't even happen in the Lodge, imho. It's what happens outside, in everyday life, that defines who and what a Freemason really is. Because it's actions, not aprons and rituals, that make a man what he is. I find that those looking in on Freemasonry from the outside are the ones most prone to making this mistake. To focus on the rites rather than the living, breathing aspects of the Fraternity. It's an understandable mistake since the rites, at first glance, seem to be publicly accessible on the net and in books and what have you. So people focus on what they have in hand and can tangibly study and attempt to grasp intellectually. It fails in the end, because Masonry is in the heart and no book or ritual can convey this. It's similar to someone trying to recreate a small French village from novels and picture books. Oh, you can get the architecture right and the costumes perfect all you want. Train people to speak fluent French and import all the proper foods and flora. But you'll never capture and recreate the feel of a village that's stood for hundreds of years. You might fool someone who doesn't know better, but anyone who's experienced the real thing will see through the illusion instantly. That's the quality that can't be found in books. That's the heart of the Masonic Fraternity that can't be found by intellectually studying it's aspects or attempting to recreate it's rituals. The real secrets of Masonry are not and can not be found there.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 13, 2009 17:14:44 GMT
Oh I couldn't disagree more. Why is the average "lifespan" of a Master Mason three years? Why does the Masonic population decrease 10% every decade? My answer is because they did not know what they where getting into and once they where in no one knew where to go. The pillar of severity, the feminine, the static is at the left (EA,) Boaz. the pillar of mercy, the fluid, the masculine is and the Right (FC) Jachin. The received, the middle pillar, from Markuth to Daath is represented in the lodge. Does this not make a difference in operative work? Love and Light, MM I could not disagree with you more! If I was an outsider reading the above for the first time, I would probably think you were completely mad! I can only speak for The Freemasonry I know in UGLE. And it has many routes for many different types of aspirant. What you state is in my opinion so elitist in its attitude (if you cannot understand my version of Freemasonry you will never be able to 'get' it). Freemasonry teaches many things, for those that want to pursue the knowledge of the kabbalah it will indeed help and assist. If I was to say to you, you will never be a proper mason because you cannot understand the true message of Freemasonry which I believe to be the reintegration of mankind with God through the Christ. You would be insulted (and probably rightly so!). You can be as proud of your masonic system as you wish, there are many here who are genuinely happy for you that you have found a system that suits you. Please do not keep throwing you cannot know this or that unless you understand this or that at us. it is simply not correct. I have travelled down far more paths than the average mason, it does not make me any better, not have I found one system that has it all. They all teach useful lessons. Tolerance is one of the best lessons exemplified by Freemasonry and I wish more people actually understood how Freemasonry teaches it along with controlling ones ego. If you can master these two lessons you are seriously a long way along the correct path. And you do not need to know a basic understandin of kaballah to do this. UGLE gives every Freemason the opportunity to develop there understanding of it, in whatever direction they wish, some choose not to develop at all but just enjoy the very first level, and I have never thought that these masons are any way inferior to any who choose to look further. At the same time I feel it is totally wrong for anyone who feels he has attained the 'real' secret or reason for Freemasonry to write off all of those that do not see things his way, to me that is 'unmasonic'! Tolerance and control of the ego, in my opinion the 2 most important characteristics of a good Mason Chris, Where did I say that this is the "only" way? i think you are jumping to conclusions. Yes, the Quabbalistic Tree of Life overlays on the lodgeroom floor. If you know the sephiroth and what they represent and how they move you will then understand Masonic cadence and framework found with every Masonic rite. That is what I have found. You may disagree. Fine. I have no problem with your disagreement. After all this is a discussion forum. That is what I am attempting to have here, a discussion. Frankly, I don't get the overt sensativity of this place sometimes. Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 13, 2009 17:16:48 GMT
UGLE gives every Freemason the opportunity to develop there understanding of it, in whatever direction they wish, some choose not to develop at all but just enjoy the very first level, and I have never thought that these masons are any way inferior to any who choose to look further. Agreed! Freemasonry is a rich and deep system and has many aspects to it. The most important part of Freemasonry, imho, is the part that expects you to work on yourself and make yourself better so that you might a better Brother, neighbour, son and husband. The Qabbalah is not going to help you achieve this. To focus on the Qabbalah is to almost miss the point entirely, actually. Are there elements of the Qabbalah in Masonic ritual? Sure. It's very neat and pretty too. But the ritual is not all of Freemasonry. The real meat of Freemasonry doesn't even happen in the Lodge, imho. It's what happens outside, in everyday life, that defines who and what a Freemason really is. Because it's actions, not aprons and rituals, that make a man what he is. I find that those looking in on Freemasonry from the outside are the ones most prone to making this mistake. To focus on the rites rather than the living, breathing aspects of the Fraternity. It's an understandable mistake since the rites, at first glance, seem to be publicly accessible on the net and in books and what have you. So people focus on what they have in hand and can tangibly study and attempt to grasp intellectually. It fails in the end, because Masonry is in the heart and no book or ritual can convey this. It's similar to someone trying to recreate a small French village from novels and picture books. Oh, you can get the architecture right and the costumes perfect all you want. Train people to speak fluent French and import all the proper foods and flora. But you'll never capture and recreate the feel of a village that's stood for hundreds of years. You might fool someone who doesn't know better, but anyone who's experienced the real thing will see through the illusion instantly. That's the quality that can't be found in books. That's the heart of the Masonic Fraternity that can't be found by intellectually studying it's aspects or attempting to recreate it's rituals. The real secrets of Masonry are not and can not be found there. I agree that where the "rubber meets the road" when it comes to Freemasonry is outside the lodge. Everyday life, the temple not made by hands. Living stones. I don't think I have ever said otherwise. I am trying not to draw personal conclusions regarding your French village reconstruction diatribe. Perhaps you would like to clarify? Love and Light,
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Augur
Member
Travelling salesman. Roamin' profit.
Posts: 184
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Post by Augur on Dec 13, 2009 17:31:19 GMT
I am trying not to draw personal conclusions regarding your French village reconstruction diatribe. Perhaps you would like to clarify? Clarify as to whether it's personal towards you or not? Interesting. You first question why it seems to be so touchy around here then you get ... touchy! So, if that's what you mean, then no. I didn't and don't mean you specifically when I wrote it. I wasn't thinking about you at all, actually. There are hosts of 'scholars' and others than claim to understand the Fraternity through the means I outlined and they fail due to the reasons I stated. The 'French Village' being a great metaphor for their attempted intellectual reconstruction and the hollowness of their results.
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Post by whistler on Dec 13, 2009 17:39:59 GMT
"You cannot, seriously cannot be a Craftsman without an basic understanding of why things are the way things are within universal Masonic cosmology." MM the problem with that is the assumption that if my view of Masonic Cosmology is different from Middlepillar one of us can't be a craftsman - to hold that opinion would in its self show the lack of basic understanding - In the theme of this thread I understand a few vague aspects of the Kabbalah - and don't doubt that it can be overlaid onto the ritual and detail of the craft - as can other belief structures - I happily overlay my personal beliefs which does not include the Kabbalah and makes me confident that amongst other things in life I am a Craftsman - but then Hey Bluecod doesn't thing I am, and on your thesis because of my lack of your understanding of universal Freemason you don't think I am either. Does that disturb my Freemasonry - Nope
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 13, 2009 17:47:57 GMT
I am trying not to draw personal conclusions regarding your French village reconstruction diatribe. Perhaps you would like to clarify? Clarify as to whether it's personal towards you or not? Interesting. You first question why it seems to be so touchy around here then you get ... touchy! So, if that's what you mean, then no. I didn't and don't mean you specifically when I wrote it. I wasn't thinking about you at all, actually. There are hosts of 'scholars' and others than claim to understand the Fraternity through the means I outlined and they fail due to the reasons I stated. The 'French Village' being a great metaphor for their attempted intellectual reconstruction and the hollowness of their results. How do you know people you don't know get hollow results? Are you a claravoiant?
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 13, 2009 17:50:23 GMT
"You cannot, seriously cannot be a Craftsman without an basic understanding of why things are the way things are within universal Masonic cosmology." MM the problem with that is the assumption that if my view of Masonic Cosmology is different from Middlepillar one of us can't be a craftsman - to hold that opinion would in its self show the lack of basic understanding - In the theme of this thread I understand a few vague aspects of the Kabbalah - and don't doubt that it can be overlaid onto the ritual and detail of the craft - as can other belief structures - I happily overlay my personal beliefs which does not include the Kabbalah and makes me confident that amongst other things in life I am a Craftsman - but then Hey Bluecod doesn't thing I am, and on your thesis because of my lack of your understanding of universal Freemason you don't think I am either. Does that disturb my Freemasonry - Nope IMHO a deeper understanding of why things are the way they are is a very good thing. It can only enhance one's skillset. Not everyone asks these types of questions. Perhaps they should be encouraged to? BTW: I never stated you weren't a Craftsman, Whistler. Bluecob and I usually don't agree on much. Love and Light,
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 13, 2009 18:15:31 GMT
Chris, Where did I say that this is the "only" way? i think you are jumping to conclusions. Yes, the Quabbalistic Tree of Life overlays on the lodgeroom floor. If you know the sephiroth and what they represent and how they move you will then understand Masonic cadence and framework found with every Masonic rite. That is what I have found. You may disagree. Fine. I have no problem with your disagreement. After all this is a discussion forum. That is what I am attempting to have here, a discussion. Frankly, I don't get the overt sensativity of this place sometimes. Love and Light, Brad I didnt say you did, I do feel you do have a tendancy to 'write off' other Freemasons who disagree with what you consider important. You are correct this is a discussion Forum, I certainly have no time for being overtly sensitive, however if you write things I disagree with, I will write and disagree with you, and also offer an opinion as to why I think you are wrong. I personally feel the Qabballah has much within it that can be used within Masonic research and within basic Freemasonry, but I do not think it is any where near essential for the majority of Freemasons to understand and appreciate it for them to know what Freemasonry is.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 13, 2009 18:31:12 GMT
Chris, Where did I say that this is the "only" way? i think you are jumping to conclusions. Yes, the Quabbalistic Tree of Life overlays on the lodgeroom floor. If you know the sephiroth and what they represent and how they move you will then understand Masonic cadence and framework found with every Masonic rite. That is what I have found. You may disagree. Fine. I have no problem with your disagreement. After all this is a discussion forum. That is what I am attempting to have here, a discussion. Frankly, I don't get the overt sensativity of this place sometimes. Love and Light, Brad I didnt say you did, I do feel you do have a tendancy to 'write off' other Freemasons who disagree with what you consider important. You are correct this is a discussion Forum, I certainly have no time for being overtly sensitive, however if you write things I disagree with, I will write and disagree with you, and also offer an opinion as to why I think you are wrong. I personally feel the Qabballah has much within it that can be used within Masonic research and within basic Freemasonry, but I do not think it is any where near essential for the majority of Freemasons to understand and appreciate it for them to know what Freemasonry is. Chris, Thats fine, I have no problem with that. I realize that i am pretty sigular in my reasons for being and remaining a Freemason. I seek to understand Masonic ritual and then apply those understandings into operative practice. Others may have different motivations. Love and Light,
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Augur
Member
Travelling salesman. Roamin' profit.
Posts: 184
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Post by Augur on Dec 13, 2009 18:47:55 GMT
How do you know people you don't know get hollow results? Are you a claravoiant? A claravoiant? Oh, heaven's no. I don't know any 'Clara's'! Makes it difficult to see them. I am, however, a clairvoyant - amongst other things. But that's besides the point. How do I know they get hollow results? By the methods employed. I hardly need to know every person who mixes dirt and water together to tell that they're going to get mud, do I? Doesn't even take clairvoyance. Just an understanding of the processes and the ability to observe. People who mistake the ritual for the Craft, mistake the seed for the tree. They're connected, for certain, but you can plant seed in barren soil and not end up with the tree. And it's the tree that's the result of doing the real Work and where the essence of Freemasonry really lies.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 13, 2009 19:13:08 GMT
To assume that a ritualist doesn't take the Lux Occulta and then apply it in life would be an aussumption I would be unwilling to make.
Love and Light,
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Post by mcovey on Dec 13, 2009 19:30:25 GMT
You cannot, seriously cannot be a Craftsman without an basic understanding of why things are the way things are within universal Masonic cosmology. Why the lodge room is laid out the way it is. The position of the officers, why the space between the open VSL and the WM must never be crossed. That is pure BS Especially the last sentence.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 13, 2009 19:34:28 GMT
You cannot, seriously cannot be a Craftsman without an basic understanding of why things are the way things are within universal Masonic cosmology. Why the lodge room is laid out the way it is. The position of the officers, why the space between the open VSL and the WM must never be crossed. That is pure BS Especially the last sentence. Thanks for your input. Most valuable
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