Augur
Member
Travelling salesman. Roamin' profit.
Posts: 184
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Post by Augur on Dec 1, 2009 20:21:23 GMT
If someone wants to join a Christian only lodge, why shouldn't they be able to? They can and they do. I see no problem with it. I'm personally aware of several Jewish and Moslem only Lodges. It's only a problem if you're doing something like this in the mistaken belief that another culture or sex is inferior. They're not. Just different. Some people want to work with those differences and some people want the strength of homogenatity. If you're not practicing or teaching any sort of hate, your freedom of association allows you to do as you wish. Like it or not, there's nothing immoral or unethical about this.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 1, 2009 20:30:48 GMT
With this Steve I agree. Those who wish to join a male only body should, those who wish to join a female only body should, and those who wish to join a mixed order should. Why should anyone dictate that gender specific orders are wrong. We all have choices in life and it would become a very sad day when those choices are withdrawn from us. Brother, Can't that same argument apply to race or religion? If someone wants to join a whites only lodge why shouldn't they be able to? If someone wants to join a Christian only lodge, why shouldn't they be able to? My answer, the reason why they shouldn't be able to is that all of those situations directly violate the Masonic virtue of equality amongst the Brothehood of mankind. As does gender discrimination. Love and Light, I suppose then that you disapprove of the Masonic Knights Templar as well then since one must profess a belief in Christianity and vow to defend it in order to be a member. What are your thoughts on college fraternities? A fraternity is male only and I never heard women at my college complain about it. Its becuase they could go right across the street and pick from about 5 different female sororities. Me thinks you doth protest too much.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 1, 2009 20:52:37 GMT
Brother, Can't that same argument apply to race or religion? If someone wants to join a whites only lodge why shouldn't they be able to? If someone wants to join a Christian only lodge, why shouldn't they be able to? My answer, the reason why they shouldn't be able to is that all of those situations directly violate the Masonic virtue of equality amongst the Brothehood of mankind. As does gender discrimination. Love and Light, I suppose then that you disapprove of the Masonic Knights Templar as well then since one must profess a belief in Christianity and vow to defend it in order to be a member. What are your thoughts on college fraternities? A fraternity is male only and I never heard women at my college complain about it. Its becuase they could go right across the street and pick from about 5 different female sororities. Me thinks you doth protest too much. Yep, I am not for religious exclusion. Freemasonry has a great strength. It is creedless. The whole idea of men and women from all backgrounds, social status and faiths (including lack of) coming together to meet on the level is IMHO a beautiful thing. Extremly revolutionary and progressive. It has made the world a better place by example. I am not discussing college fraternaties nor sororities here. I wouldn't approve of Greek Row style hazing in a Masonic lodge or beer bongs either. Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 1, 2009 20:53:42 GMT
If someone wants to join a Christian only lodge, why shouldn't they be able to? They can and they do. I see no problem with it. I'm personally aware of several Jewish and Moslem only Lodges. It's only a problem if you're doing something like this in the mistaken belief that another culture or sex is inferior. They're not. Just different. Some people want to work with those differences and some people want the strength of homogenatity. If you're not practicing or teaching any sort of hate, your freedom of association allows you to do as you wish. Like it or not, there's nothing immoral or unethical about this. I am not aware of any mainstream Masonic Code that enables religious discrimination. If you are aware of please post it. Love and Light,
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Dec 1, 2009 22:30:02 GMT
I suppose then that you disapprove of the Masonic Knights Templar as well then since one must profess a belief in Christianity and vow to defend it in order to be a member.
What are your thoughts on college fraternities? A fraternity is male only and I never heard women at my college complain about it. Its becuase they could go right across the street and pick from about 5 different female sororities. The distinction being that Freemasonry presents itself as a model of equality and inclusion.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 2, 2009 0:14:33 GMT
They can and they do. I see no problem with it. I'm personally aware of several Jewish and Moslem only Lodges. It's only a problem if you're doing something like this in the mistaken belief that another culture or sex is inferior. They're not. Just different. Some people want to work with those differences and some people want the strength of homogenatity. If you're not practicing or teaching any sort of hate, your freedom of association allows you to do as you wish. Like it or not, there's nothing immoral or unethical about this. I am not aware of any mainstream Masonic Code that enables religious discrimination. If you are aware of please post it. Love and Light, Then you are not familiar with the Grand Lodge of Sweden (or Danish Freemasonry which operates under the GLoS) which requires all Freemasons in their jurisdiction to be Christian. "Why?" you ask? Because they choose to follow the idea put forth in Freemasonry in many countries that one should be an adherent to the religion of the nation in which one is a Mason.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 2, 2009 0:17:55 GMT
I am not aware of any mainstream Masonic Code that enables religious discrimination. If you are aware of please post it. Love and Light, Then you are not familiar with the Grand Lodge of Sweden (or Danish Freemasonry which operates under the GLoS) which requires all Freemasons in their jurisdiction to be Christian. "Why?" you ask? Because they choose to follow the idea put forth in Freemasonry in many countries that one should be an adherent to the religion of the nation in which one is a Mason. Yep, I am aware of it. I was asking about USA Mainstream lodges. Sorry for the lack of clarification. The Swedish Rite system is leading to their own demise. Perhaps a topic for another thread? Love and Light,
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 2, 2009 0:18:34 GMT
I suppose then that you disapprove of the Masonic Knights Templar as well then since one must profess a belief in Christianity and vow to defend it in order to be a member. What are your thoughts on college fraternities? A fraternity is male only and I never heard women at my college complain about it. Its becuase they could go right across the street and pick from about 5 different female sororities. Me thinks you doth protest too much. Yep, I am not for religious exclusion. Freemasonry has a great strength. It is creedless. The whole idea of men and women from all backgrounds, social status and faiths (including lack of) coming together to meet on the level is IMHO a beautiful thing. Extremly revolutionary and progressive. It has made the world a better place by example. I am not discussing college fraternaties nor sororities here. I wouldn't approve of Greek Row style hazing in a Masonic lodge or beer bongs either. Love and Light, Who said anything about hazing. I mentioned college fraternities and sororities as an example and you chose to go off on a tangent that isnt even mentioned so as to divert from the original topic. In debate and rhetoric I belive that is often called a false flag. And if you believe there is nothing approaching hazing in Freemasonry, you need to think about the Hiramic legend portions of the Master Mason degree around the world and see how it is done in various places.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 2, 2009 0:19:12 GMT
The distinction being that Freemasonry presents itself as a model of equality and inclusion. Yes. And the whole of Freemasonry has done a most excellent job offering a diverse assortment of opportunities for all to participate in within each person's own comfort levels, desired constraints and prefered outcomes. Isn't Freemasonry wonderful?! Do you personally recognize all Freemasons as equal? Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 2, 2009 0:22:10 GMT
Yep, I am not for religious exclusion. Freemasonry has a great strength. It is creedless. The whole idea of men and women from all backgrounds, social status and faiths (including lack of) coming together to meet on the level is IMHO a beautiful thing. Extremly revolutionary and progressive. It has made the world a better place by example. I am not discussing college fraternaties nor sororities here. I wouldn't approve of Greek Row style hazing in a Masonic lodge or beer bongs either. Love and Light, Who said anything about hazing. I mentioned college fraternities and sororities as an example and you chose to go off on a tangent that isnt even mentioned so as to divert from the original topic. In debate and rhetoric I belive that is often called a false flag. And if you believe there is nothing approaching hazing in Freemasonry, you need to think about the Hiramic legend portions of the Master Mason degree around the world and see how it is done in various places. You decided to compare an apple to an orange. I took it upon myself to right the ship. There should be no hazing going on in the especially solemn third degree. Love and Light, I have removed the reference to The GL of GA, it is not allowed to criticise any GL on this Forum. Please refrain MP
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 2, 2009 0:33:18 GMT
Who said anything about hazing. I mentioned college fraternities and sororities as an example and you chose to go off on a tangent that isnt even mentioned so as to divert from the original topic. In debate and rhetoric I belive that is often called a false flag. And if you believe there is nothing approaching hazing in Freemasonry, you need to think about the Hiramic legend portions of the Master Mason degree around the world and see how it is done in various places. You decided to compare an apple to an orange. I took it upon myself to right the ship. There should be no hazing going on in the especially solemn third degree. Love and Light, I did no such thing. I compared an apple to an apple. College and university fraternities and sororities have their own rituals and rites of initiation, their own alleghory and symbols, their own tradition and history. Furthermore, if you knew as much about the "solemn 3rd degree" as you claim to, you would know that it is largely left up to the ad libbing of the Brethren as it is largely not "scripted" by ritual. (I have removed the reference to GA as it is no longer pertinent to this thread MP) Stop putting words in my mouth to advocate for the solemnity of Memphis Misraim or Lodge Hera or the flavor of the day whilst at the same time bashing mainstream Freemasonry which you clearly have a distate for and prejudice against. The fact remains, to get back on topic, that I have no problem at all with female Freemasons and I personally recognize them fully as Masons. The fact also remains that having male only Lodges is not sexist. It would be sexist if there were no female Lodges. Are they no exclusive based on gender? They are indeed and yet I hear no hew and cry about that. Why is that, Brad? The stench of red herring in here is getting to be a bit much.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 2, 2009 0:38:31 GMT
You decided to compare an apple to an orange. I took it upon myself to right the ship. There should be no hazing going on in the especially solemn third degree. Love and Light, I did no such thing. I compared an apple to an apple. College and university fraternities and sororities have their own rituals and rites of initiation, their own alleghory and symbols, their own tradition and history. Stop putting words in my mouth to advocate for the solemnity of Memphis Misraim or Lodge Hera or the flavor of the day whilst at the same time bashing mainstream Freemasonry which you clearly have a distate for and prejudice against. The fact remains, to get back on topic, that I have no problem at all with female Freemasons and I personally recognize them fully as Masons. The fact also remains that having male only Lodges is not sexist. It would be sexist if there were no female Lodges. Are they no exclusive based on gender? They are indeed and yet I hear no hew and cry about that. Why is that, Brad? The stench of red herring in here is getting to be a bit much. If you believe Freemasonry to be nothing more that an adult college frat than I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Some of us believe Freemasonry to be a progressive science, veiled in allegory and illustrated through symbols. For those of us that believe in this to be gender exclusive is appauling, on a core level. Good luck to you and whatever makes you happy. Love and Light,
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Post by enki on Dec 2, 2009 0:46:30 GMT
Correction: The Danish Order of Freemasons (Den Danske Frimurerorden) is sovereign and is not under the Swedish Order of Freemasons (that is the correct title, not GLoS which is commonly used to abbreviate the Grand Lodge of Scotland).
They share the same rite (The Swedish Rite), but even then there are a few differences between the two. I'm sure a practitioner of this rite can fill you in on the details.
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 2, 2009 0:47:38 GMT
I did no such thing. I compared an apple to an apple. College and university fraternities and sororities have their own rituals and rites of initiation, their own alleghory and symbols, their own tradition and history. Stop putting words in my mouth to advocate for the solemnity of Memphis Misraim or Lodge Hera or the flavor of the day whilst at the same time bashing mainstream Freemasonry which you clearly have a distate for and prejudice against. The fact remains, to get back on topic, that I have no problem at all with female Freemasons and I personally recognize them fully as Masons. The fact also remains that having male only Lodges is not sexist. It would be sexist if there were no female Lodges. Are they no exclusive based on gender? They are indeed and yet I hear no hew and cry about that. Why is that, Brad? The stench of red herring in here is getting to be a bit much. If you believe Freemasonry to be nothing more that an adult college frat than I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Some of us believe Freemasonry to be a progressive science, veiled in allegory and illustrated through symbols. For those of us that believe in this to be gender exclusive is appauling, on a core level. Good luck to you and whatever makes you happy. Love and Light, There you go throwing fish again. I never said that Freemasonry was "nothing more than an adult fraternity" and you know that, Brad. I simply pointed out that they are both bodies which exercise gender exclusivity. What you failed to do was address whether you have a problem with female only Masonic obediences. Youre trying to get away from some of your theses which dont bear out and have no basis in reality and Im not letting you off the hook that easily. Why dont you address the questions that are put to you instead of trying to slip out the back door? Im not going to go any further with this as it is getting heated and I think this is an important thread, but as I say, you have yet to talk about female only Masonic obediences. Even if your theory is that they are only reacting to male only obediences, then it follows that you are saying that they are reacting to sexism with sexism. There are logical falacies in your argument big enough to drive a truck through. Also, could you please cite your source for what you said about the 3rd degree under the GL of Georgia? Furthermore, you said earlier that the GL of Alabama has written into its constitutions that no African American man will be admitted. Can you cite this for me as well. I have no doubt that there is institutionalized racism within certain GLs, but I do not believe that even someone so narrowminded as to practice that racism would be stupid enough to right it down. And exactly how is it that you know so much about all of these GLs that you can just cite their constitutions off the top of your head? Once again I call stink fish.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 2, 2009 1:41:40 GMT
If you believe Freemasonry to be nothing more that an adult college frat than I have nothing more to say to you on the matter. Some of us believe Freemasonry to be a progressive science, veiled in allegory and illustrated through symbols. For those of us that believe in this to be gender exclusive is appauling, on a core level. Good luck to you and whatever makes you happy. Love and Light, There you go throwing fish again. I never said that Freemasonry was "nothing more than an adult fraternity" and you know that, Brad. I simply pointed out that they are both bodies which exercise gender exclusivity. What you failed to do was address whether you have a problem with female only Masonic obediences. Youre trying to get away from some of your theses which dont bear out and have no basis in reality and Im not letting you off the hook that easily. Why dont you address the questions that are put to you instead of trying to slip out the back door? Im not going to go any further with this as it is getting heated and I think this is an important thread, but as I say, you have yet to talk about female only Masonic obediences. Even if your theory is that they are only reacting to male only obediences, then it follows that you are saying that they are reacting to sexism with sexism. There are logical falacies in your argument big enough to drive a truck through. Also, could you please cite your source for what you said about the 3rd degree under the GL of Georgia? Furthermore, you said earlier that the GL of Alabama has written into its constitutions that no African American man will be admitted. Can you cite this for me as well. I have no doubt that there is institutionalized racism within certain GLs, but I do not believe that even someone so narrowminded as to practice that racism would be stupid enough to right it down. And exactly how is it that you know so much about all of these GLs that you can just cite their constitutions off the top of your head? Once again I call stink fish. I do not for one second agree with female only freemasonry. It is just as repulsive in my view. Three Stooges Degree: burningtaper.blogspot.com/2008/09/three-stooges-degree-pickens-star-lodge.htmlInstiutionalized racism? I doubt the "Gate City Affair" would have made international headlines if it didn't exist. Grand Lodge of Alabama racism: vulcanlodge.co.cc/?p=368Yep, the fish stink. Stink like hell and they seem to be on the way to your market. Love and Light,
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 2, 2009 1:59:40 GMT
You'll notice I said that institutionalized racism does exist. Please try to read my answers more carefully and completely.
So you believe the only true Masonry must needs be co-Masonry?
If by the fish be headed to my market you are somehow implying racism and sexism, you should think more carefully before you speak.
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 2, 2009 2:15:13 GMT
You'll notice I said that institutionalized racism does exist. Please try to read my answers more carefully and completely. So you believe the only true Masonry must needs be co-Masonry? If by the fish be headed to my market you are somehow implying racism and sexism, you should think more carefully before you speak. If institutionalized racism does exist in Freemasonry what are you doing to stop it? Unlike you I do not use the terms "true" "real" Genuine" when it comes to Freemasonry. I used your own stinky fish analogy to apply to the mainstream situation you find yourself in. Sorry if that offended you. Love and Light,
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Post by letterorhalveit3 on Dec 2, 2009 2:20:01 GMT
Well it does offend me just as it offends you when someone comes after your multiple Lodges and "rites."
What's clear here is that you had a bad experience with mainstream Masonry and will use any excuse to bash it. If you are so against "single sex" Masonry, why did you petition and then join under the GL of California? (it was California, wasnt it?)
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 2, 2009 2:27:44 GMT
Well it does offend me just as it offends you when someone comes after your multiple Lodges and "rites." What's clear here is that you had a bad experience with mainstream Masonry and will use any excuse to bash it. If you are so against "single sex" Masonry, why did you petition and then join under the GL of California? (it was California, wasnt it?) Nope, not using excuses. I just have a different interpitation of Masonic virtue. In mine, it does not include discrimination. Times change, people change, opinions change. When I first became a Mainstream Mason I asked why the "no women" rule. I was told it was because Freemasonry took it's traditions from Stonemasons who where exclusivley male. Well, they weren't exclusivley male. I was also a Christian at the time, so the declared belief in a Supreme Being agreed with me. I have since denied Christ and I now appreciate the idea of allowing those of no faith to build in the quarry. I've changed in a lot of ways. I decided to persue a flavor Freemasonry that has changed through the times also. Love and Light,
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Post by magusmasonica on Dec 2, 2009 2:30:48 GMT
Now if that is not a pot calling the kettle. ;D Nice Try,
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