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Post by whistler on Mar 10, 2010 17:15:30 GMT
Go for it Goats and others.....
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Post by whistler on Mar 10, 2010 17:54:36 GMT
My country has proud and noble oral traditions - before the Pakeha (White fellows) came we didn't have a written language. Our oral tradition lets us list our family roots back to the which of the first canoes, that came from the mystical homeland in the Pacific, our family was on. Even today many of our ceremonies depend and demonstrate our oral tradition. The Tradition in our meeting house of course women are present but are not allowed to speak - so it beholds men to become the orators - it is within our oral tradition that the creation of earth, sky men and women can be found. - No New Zealand Maori can hope to progress far in tribal politics without first becoming an accomplished orator on the Marea. Tell me North American Folk - when the slaves were bought to America - did they bring oral traditions with them - has any of those traditions survived to modern times
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 11, 2010 8:02:13 GMT
That is very interesting, Whistler. I find oral traditions to be fascinating, and all ancient cultures left wisdom contained in oral tradition. Yes, those slave traditions survived, though I have to admit a large ignorance as to the area of research. I do know that the traditions survived. I have studied parallel myths and there are many extraordinary examples of synchronicity between geographically separated groups. We are really more alike than different, though we come from different areas.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 11, 2010 8:13:33 GMT
With oral traditions, we can consider children's rhymes as a means of passing on information. 'Ring around the rosy', 'Little Jack Horner' &c. Unfortunately, oral traditions work best if either the information cannot be screwed up too much in translation or if the culture supports strict educational standards.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 11, 2010 8:25:22 GMT
I can only speak as I have found things and how they have affected me.
I went through childhood as you say using the nursey ryhmes and ditties. Indeed I tell the schoolboy jokes to my Grandkids. The same happened in school repeat , repeat , 1x1 = 1 , 1x2 = 2 etc. But as a Large employer said on breakfast television today, when he asks a school leaver , what is 7 x 9 ? the pupil reaches for a calculator.
The repeated catachism brings with it a natural reaction. Every animal on the earth leanrs by trial and tribulation, again , again, again , until it becomes a automatic reaction.
In the case of a Freemason, a man falls to the ground in front of you, you stop and you do whatever you can to help. I have seen many a person step over the fallen man.
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 11, 2010 9:13:39 GMT
I have my doubts about it to be honest. There is always the "Chinese Whispers" effect where the message changes with each telling. I have even seen this at work were some superviors can come back from a meeting with Management and even unconsciously alter the emphasis and intrepretations of what was actually said at the meeting. Even the written word, while more accurate, can change its meaning over the years, in my lifetime the word "Gay" for example has changed from meaning lively and vivacious to meaning Male Homosexual and other older words over a longer time scale have also taken on alternative meanings , e,g "Conceit" "Brawl" etc.
I prefer to have the Rituals in written form, then one can use them, be this from memory or as I greatly prefer by reading, with accuracy. I am not a fan of "mouth to ear" systems but each to their own.
Regarding not helping someone who is in difficuties. Alas this is driven by modern culture, not only selfishness but the burden of Health and Safety Rules now applying. Take the example of the PCSOs who let a child drown as they hadn't been trained in rescue, or the firemen rebuked by their management for rescuing someone from a well as no risk assessment had been done.
The illustraion of the man on the road is of course bona fide but there have been cases of set-ups. I will give you two . A cyclist is seen lying with his bike in the gutter. A driver sees him and assumes he has been knocked off of his bike by a vehicle and stops to help. Muggers in collusion with the "cyclist" then assault the driver possibly stealing his car. A variation of this is a man and woman fighting in the street, he slaps her face, a man goes to her assistance and they turn on him and he is mugged. It has been a set-up. Also there is the problem of the "good samaritan " being charged by the Police of they use force towards a mugger, pick-pocket, someone twocing a car, a vandal etc. These days people keep away from being dircetly involved and possibly phone the Police or Emergency Services from a safer location.
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 11, 2010 10:05:39 GMT
Oh, I agree there is always the case against charging in where you are not wanted. Or where they may be danger.
I can remember the day I stopped my car in the middle of the road and went to help a young girl who was being attacked, she was so happy at me pulling the thug off her she hit me with her handbag.
But if another girl is attacked and I am there, I would just have to do the same thing again. It is an automatic reaction. I find it impossible to ignore such things. But then sometimes I am not too bright.
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Post by whistler on Mar 11, 2010 10:44:11 GMT
In My country especially pre Pakeha days communication and traditions were maintained by oral teachings - but they also were represented by carving and weaving - the inside walls of a meeting house contains weaving that tells a story - the carved posts in those meeting houses also tells a story - So here we have oral traditions supported by - what would we call those weavings and carvings ? they are not written but serve the purpose. Here is a traditional Maori Legend that has survived the coming of the European - and is delightful in it's Form. "Maui and the Sun
Maui, had not been long at home with his brothers when he began to think, that it was too soon after the rising of the sun that it became night again, and that the sun again sank down below the horizon, every day, every day; in the same manner the days appeared too short to him.
So at last, one day he said to his brothers: 'Let us now catch the sun in a noose, so that we may compel him to move more slowly, in order that mankind may have long days to labour in to procure subsistence for themselves'
They answered him: 'Why, no man could approach it on account of its warmth, and the fierceness of its heat'
Maui said to them: 'Have you not seen the multitude of things I have already achieved? Did not you see me change myself into the likeness of every bird of the forest; you and I equally had the aspect and appearance of men, yet I by my enchantments changed suddenly from the appearance of a man and became a bird, and then, continuing to change my form, I resembled this bird or that bird, one after the other, until I had by degrees transformed myself into every bird in the world, small or great; and did I not after all this again assume the form of a man? [This he did soon after he was born, and it was after that he snared the sun.] Therefore, as for that feat, oh, my brothers, the changing myself into birds, I accomplished it by enchantments, and I will by the same means accomplish also this other thing which I have in my mind.'
When his brothers heard this, they consented on his persuasions to aid him in the conquest of the sun.
Then they began to spin and twist ropes to form a noose to catch the sun in, and in doing this they discovered the mode of plaiting flax into stout square-shaped ropes, (tuamaka); and the manner of plaiting flat ropes, (paharahara); and of spinning round ropes; at last, they finished making all the ropes which they required.
Then Maui took up his enchanted weapon, and he took his brothers with him, and they carried their provisions, ropes, and other things with them, in their hands.
They travelled all night, and as soon as day broke, they halted in the desert, and hid themselves that they might not be seen by the sun; and at night they renewed their journey, and before dawn they halted, and hid themselves again; at length they got very far, very far, to the eastward, and came to the very edge of the place out of which the sun rises.
They set to work and built on each side of this place a long high wall of clay, with huts of boughs of trees at each end to hide themselves in; when these were finished, they made the loops of the noose, and the brothers of Maui then lay in wait on one side of the place out of which the sun rises, and Maui himself lay in wait upon the other side.
Maui held in his hand his enchanted weapon, the jaw-bone of his ancestress of Muri-ranga-whenua, and said to his brothers: 'Mind now, keep yourselves hid, and do not go showing yourselves foolishly to the sun; if you do, you will frighten him; but wait patiently until his head and fore-legs have got well into the snare, then I will shout out; haul away as hard as you can on the ropes on both sides, and then I'll rush out and attack him, but do you keep your ropes tight for a good long time (while I attack him), until he is nearly dead, when we will let him go; but mind, now, my brothers, do not let him move you to pity with his shrieks and screams.'
At last the sun came rising up out of his place, like a fire spreading far and wide over the mountains and forests; he rises up, his head passes through the noose, and it takes in more and more of his body, until his fore-paws pass through; then were pulled tight the ropes, and the monster began to struggle and roll himself about, whilst the snare jerked backwards and forwards as he struggled. Ah! was not he held fast in the ropes of his enemies!
Then forth rushed Mau-tikitiki-o-Taranga, with his enchanted weapon. Alas! the sun screams aloud; he roars; Maui strikes him fiercely with many blows; they hold him for a long time, at last they let him go, and then weak from wounds the sun crept along its course.
Then was learnt by men the second name of the sun, for in its agony the sun screamed out: 'Why am I thus smitten by you! oh, man! do you know what you are doing? Why should you wish to kill Tama-nui-te-Ra?’
Thus was learnt his second name. At last they let him go. Oh, then, Tama-nui-te-Ra went very slowly and feebly on his course.
Maui-taha and his brothers after this feat returned again to their own house
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Post by whistler on Mar 11, 2010 18:21:20 GMT
I certainly agree Oral traditions can certainly change overtime and also with the intent of the story teller - In our Lodge we see it as "We have always done it that way " Remember that is also true of written traditions - the Christians Bible is a fine example of that. Which is one of the reasons I think of various Sacred books as "Lore" Some Oral traditions are remarkably accurate as can be seen in Maori Culture where the Elders can accurately list their significant ancestors which lead them back to the Canoe that bought them to NZ in the first place -
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 11, 2010 22:28:30 GMT
The worst thing is when a significant piece of the chain is broken in an oral tradition. Say, the death of a shaman before he is able to appropriately convey the story. It's reflective of the journey and its dangers.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Mar 24, 2010 15:14:54 GMT
"Ring around the rosy"A good example of the garbling effect of oral tradition en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_a_Ring_o'_Roses I know many examples of this effect in current Masonic use. Although in Scotland there is free access to printed ritual texts, many recitations have obviously been learned by ear, as in one Second Degree lecture, wherein the valley of Rephidim is frequently enunciated as Refurrdum.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 24, 2010 15:47:02 GMT
I have heard things repeated in lodge that are definitely not the word intended. A humorous one from a PM I admire for his intelligence and abilities deals with the word 'cowans'. Whenever it became necessary that he sit in the chair, he would say instead 'clowns'. ;D
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 30, 2010 16:11:15 GMT
Interesting, Goat. There is a similar community in China of a peoples with claimed extra-terrestrial ancestors.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Oct 21, 2010 15:43:14 GMT
I understand the OTO at its highest levels has one of these, too. But we don't talk about that sort of thing on here, apparently Dear me, no
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Post by riley103 on Apr 11, 2012 8:05:28 GMT
My country has proud and noble oral traditions - before the Pakeha (White fellows) came we didn't have a written language. Our oral tradition lets us list our family roots back to the which of the first canoes, that came from the mystical homeland in the Pacific, our family was on. Even today many of our ceremonies depend and demonstrate our oral tradition. The Tradition in our meeting house of course women are present but are not allowed to speak - so it beholds men to become the orators - it is within our oral tradition that the creation of earth, sky men and women can be found. - No New Zealand Maori can hope to progress far in tribal politics without first becoming an accomplished orator on the Marea. Tell me North American Folk - when the slaves were bought to America - did they bring oral traditions with them - has any of those traditions survived to modern times Thanks you for the post.
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Post by whistler on Apr 16, 2012 8:49:07 GMT
Tell me North American Folk - when the slaves were bought to America - did they bring oral traditions with them - has any of those traditions survived to modern times Thanks you for the post. Perhaps you can tell me "- when the slaves were bought to America - did they bring oral traditions with them - has any of those traditions survived to modern times
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Post by maat on May 11, 2012 0:27:38 GMT
I was watching a TV documentary last night called 'Ancient Aliens' in short, referring to how the 'sons of god' (from the skies) mated with earth women and we resulted. Note: it was shown on the History Channel and presented by learned people. Apes cannot talk because they do not have suitable apparatus for it. The ancient traditions from all over the world tell us that speech/language was a gift from the gods (resulting from the mixed genes?) Maybe transferring knowledge orally became a tradition because for the people had in those early stages it was the only way to transfer knowledge. However, as stated above, it is not too reliable I wonder if there is any connection between Oral Tradition, mouth to ear and Clairaudience? Just an idle thought.
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Post by boreades on Mar 18, 2013 22:33:15 GMT
It's good that this topic is in the Esoteric Non-Masonic forum.
In Greek tradition, in Plato's play "Phaedrus", there is a famous discussion in which writing is lamented as way of loosing insight and understanding.
Now in those days the god Thamus was the king of the whole country of Egypt; and he dwelt in that great city of Upper Egypt which the Hellenes call Egyptian Thebes, and the god himself is called by them Ammon. To him came Theuth and showed his inventions, desiring that the other Egyptians might be allowed to have the benefit of them; he enumerated them, and Thamus enquired about their several uses, and praised some of them and censured others, as he approved or disapproved of them. It would take a long time to repeat all that Thamus said to Theuth in praise or blame of the various arts. But when they came to letters, This, said Theuth, will make the Egyptians wiser and give them better memories; it is a specific both for the memory and for the wit. Thamus replied: O most ingenious Theuth, the parent or inventor of an art is not always the best judge of the utility or inutility of his own inventions to the users of them. And in this instance, you who are the father of letters, from a paternal love of your own children have been led to attribute to them a quality which they cannot have; for this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners' souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves.
In Masonic scholarly writings, Manly Hall reports that "Pythagoras was criticised for compromising his lessons by his strict adherence to the obligations he had undertaken in various mystery schools of Greece, Egypt, Persia and India, requiring at times such things as regular initiation, secrecy, years of silence, teaching in allegories or from behind a screen. However, as Hall observed, ‘Having accepted the obligations of these societies, Pythagoras had no honorable course other than to abide by their regulations.’
Closer to home in Britain, Druids famously kept all learning oral, to protect the purity of their knowledge, and still do to this day.
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