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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 20, 2010 19:19:12 GMT
One cannot just decide to become a T.O. lodge. They need to go through the training and receive the certification by the Masonic Restoration Foundation.
The MRF has strict and dogmatic guidelines in regards to T.O. lodges. I have read them and they specify full tuxedos as lodge attire. Not my rules.
It is strange to modify a ritual to a large degree and call it traditional. I agree that the COR is really awesome, but it is simply not a part of the Anglo Rites and Preston Webb would certainly qualify under that classification.
IMHO, it would be better should they work the traditional AASR (REAA) or French Modern Rite. I do understand with the way mainstream GL's are governed that is nearly impossible to do. They have to deal with the hand they are dealt so I think they do a good job.
Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 20, 2010 19:33:40 GMT
One cannot just decide to become a T.O. lodge. They need to go through the training and receive the certification by the Masonic Restoration Foundation. Why? Did ANYONE say differently, because I sure didn't. Or is this another straw-man? I have no idea from whence this came. The MRF has strict and dogmatic guidelines in regards to T.O. lodges. I have read them and they specify full tuxedos as lodge attire. Not my rules. They are not hard-and-fast. I've read them too. SOME T.O. lodges do require a tuxedo, yet it is up to the individual lodges to decide what that means. It is strange to modify a ritual to a large degree and call it traditional. I agree that the COR is really awesome, but it is simply not a part of the Anglo Rites and Preston Webb would certainly qualify under that classification. It is not automatically banned from inclusion in a P.W. lodge either. IMHO, it would be better should they work the traditional AASR (REAA) or French Modern Rite. I do understand with the way mainstream GL's are governed that is nearly impossible to do. They have to deal with the hand they are dealt so I think they do a good job. I think they are doing a good job as well. I don't recall anyone disputing that fact. As to 'better', that's damn subjective.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 20, 2010 19:43:27 GMT
One cannot just decide to become a T.O. lodge. They need to go through the training and receive the certification by the Masonic Restoration Foundation. Why? Did ANYONE say differently, because I sure didn't. Or is this another straw-man? I have no idea where this came from. They are not hard-and-fast. I've read them too. SOME T.O. lodges do require a tuxedo, yet it is up to the individual lodges to decide what that means. It is not automatically banned from inclusion in a P.W. lodge either. IMHO, it would be better should they work the traditional AASR (REAA) or French Modern Rite. I do understand with the way mainstream GL's are governed that is nearly impossible to do. They have to deal with the hand they are dealt so I think they do a good job. I think they are doing a good job as well. I don't recall anyone disputing that fact. As to 'better', that's damn subjective. I am not saying they where automatically excluded for use in P.W. either. Just like how 20 inch rims are not automatically excluded from being used on a Dodge Neon. They where just never designed too. Coming from an Anglo tradition I doubt Preston nor Webb had even heard of a COR. So to then ad one where it never was or intended to be and calling it "traditional" seems silly to me. It may be there and it may work but it would be Neo, not Traditional. In order to maintain TO certification yest their rules as laid out are set in stone. Don't believe me, talk to the Hermes club in L.A. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 20, 2010 19:58:59 GMT
Why? Did ANYONE say differently, because I sure didn't. Or is this another straw-man? I have no idea where this came from. They are not hard-and-fast. I've read them too. SOME T.O. lodges do require a tuxedo, yet it is up to the individual lodges to decide what that means. It is not automatically banned from inclusion in a P.W. lodge either. I think they are doing a good job as well. I don't recall anyone disputing that fact. As to 'better', that's damn subjective. I am not saying they where automatically excluded for use in P.W. either. Just like how 20 inch rims are not automatically excluded from being used on a Dodge Neon. They where just never designed too. They were never designed specifically to exclude the rims either and can fit on a Mercedes Benz with little-to-no modification. The rims would likely not work on a motorcycle. Coming from an Anglo tradition I doubt Preston nor Webb had even heard of a COR. So to then ad one where it never was or intended to be and calling it "traditional" seems silly to me. It may be there and it may work but it would be Neo, not Traditional./quote[] Another strawman. The C.O.R. is not all that spectacular and strange, and there are many similarities to the way P.W. works. In order to maintain TO certification yest their rules as laid out are set in stone. Don't believe me, talk to the Hermes club in L.A. Love and Light, I've talked to people who belong to T.O. lodges and been invited to become a member of a T.O. lodge. The Hermes club may do it one way, yet I have friends on the MRF board. I will take their word for it. I know for a fact they know what they are talking about, and know for a fact that a tuxedo is only a requirement in certain T.O. lodges, and NOT a requirement handed down from the M.R.F. I challenge you to find any documentation that says a tuxedo is required from the M.R.F. I simply do not see it.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 20, 2010 20:15:29 GMT
They were never designed specifically to exclude the rims either and can fit on a Mercedes Benz with little-to-no modification. The rims would likely not work on a motorcycle. Coming from an Anglo tradition I doubt Preston nor Webb had even heard of a COR. So to then ad one where it never was or intended to be and calling it "traditional" seems silly to me. It may be there and it may work but it would be Neo, not Traditional./quote[] Another strawman. The C.O.R. is not all that spectacular and strange, and there are many similarities to the way P.W. works. In order to maintain TO certification yest their rules as laid out are set in stone. Don't believe me, talk to the Hermes club in L.A. Love and Light, I've talked to people who belong to T.O. lodges and been invited to become a member of a T.O. lodge. The Hermes club may do it one way, yet I have friends on the MRF board. I will take their word for it. I know for a fact they know what they are talking about, and know for a fact that a tuxedo is only a requirement in certain T.O. lodges, and NOT a requirement handed down from the M.R.F. I challenge you to find any documentation that says a tuxedo is required from the M.R.F. I simply do not see it. This has reached the point of trying to explain a "tramp stamp" to blind man. Let's hope that one day you'll put your certainties into action. I don't know why I even try to interact with you, seriously. I would guess if you where the jeans wearing TO lodge you would be the joke of the movement but that is my guess. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 20, 2010 20:24:20 GMT
I've talked to people who belong to T.O. lodges and been invited to become a member of a T.O. lodge. The Hermes club may do it one way, yet I have friends on the MRF board. I will take their word for it. I know for a fact they know what they are talking about, and know for a fact that a tuxedo is only a requirement in certain T.O. lodges, and NOT a requirement handed down from the M.R.F. I challenge you to find any documentation that says a tuxedo is required from the M.R.F. I simply do not see it. This has reached the point of trying to explain a "tramp stamp" to blind man. It certainly has. I just spoke to a Brother who is well versed in T.O. lodges, and he states: "No it <a tuxedo> isn't required. they request that you wear either tux OR dark suit, but don't require tuxes what they are looking for is for people to dress like they think it is important" I don't know why I even try to interact with you, seriously. ;D I would guess if you where the jeans wearing TO lodge you would be the joke of the movement but that is my guess. I would prefer a suit as our lodge has already. I do think it is important to note that, a lodge with members of less financial means could wear such a uniform. I'd hate to be in a group that would laugh at a brother because they were of a lower economic status.
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 20, 2010 20:57:25 GMT
"I'd hate to be in a group that would laugh at a brother because they were of a lower economic status. "
On that point we agree 100%
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Augur
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Post by Augur on Mar 20, 2010 21:14:38 GMT
"I'd hate to be in a group that would laugh at a brother because they were of a lower economic status. "On that point we agree 100% No kidding. "Traditional" is a mindset, not a dress code. If you can afford to do it, all the more power to you. But if you cannot, you cannot and I find it difficult to imagine any real Mason finding it a 'joke' if people were trying their best and had their hearts in the right place and were doing the Work.
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 20, 2010 21:41:38 GMT
Exactly!
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 20, 2010 21:43:36 GMT
"I'd hate to be in a group that would laugh at a brother because they were of a lower economic status. "On that point we agree 100% No kidding. "Traditional" is a mindset, not a dress code. If you can afford to do it, all the more power to you. But if you cannot, you cannot and I find it difficult to imagine any real Mason finding it a 'joke' if people were trying their best and had their hearts in the right place and were doing the Work. The MRF is dogmatic and strict when it comes to their certification of a "Traditional Observance tm" lodge. Don't like it? Take it up with them.
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Post by lauderdale on Mar 20, 2010 22:18:27 GMT
Well they wouldn't want me anyway as I fully accept women as Masons and have been present at the Initiation of same.
Their ball game, their rules as you say.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 20, 2010 22:57:15 GMT
No kidding. "Traditional" is a mindset, not a dress code. If you can afford to do it, all the more power to you. But if you cannot, you cannot and I find it difficult to imagine any real Mason finding it a 'joke' if people were trying their best and had their hearts in the right place and were doing the Work. The MRF is dogmatic and strict when it comes to their certification of a "Traditional Observance tm" lodge. Don't like it? Take it up with them. I like it. A lot. Your strawmen sure fall in the wind, don't they? FACT is, they do NOT require a 'tuxedo', though individual lodges DO.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 20, 2010 22:59:01 GMT
Well they wouldn't want me anyway as I fully accept women as Masons and have been present at the Initiation of same. Their ball game, their rules as you say. I think you are confusing disagreement with dislike. I know, it's an easy mistake.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 20, 2010 23:06:20 GMT
"I'd hate to be in a group that would laugh at a brother because they were of a lower economic status. "On that point we agree 100% No kidding. "Traditional" is a mindset, not a dress code. If you can afford to do it, all the more power to you. But if you cannot, you cannot and I find it difficult to imagine any real Mason finding it a 'joke' if people were trying their best and had their hearts in the right place and were doing the Work. I was surprised to see it apparently suggested as a joke. I know several good brothers who are not rolling in the dough, yet are good and honest Freemasons. Yet some here seem to think that a negative economic condition is a laughing matter. I do not.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 20, 2010 23:07:00 GMT
"I'd hate to be in a group that would laugh at a brother because they were of a lower economic status. "On that point we agree 100% No kidding. "Traditional" is a mindset, not a dress code. If you can afford to do it, all the more power to you. But if you cannot, you cannot and I find it difficult to imagine any real Mason finding it a 'joke' if people were trying their best and had their hearts in the right place and were doing the Work. When "Traditional Observance" is trademarked you follow their rules do you not? I don't get the mass confusion, you all claim to be smart guys. Love and Light
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 20, 2010 23:11:36 GMT
No kidding. "Traditional" is a mindset, not a dress code. If you can afford to do it, all the more power to you. But if you cannot, you cannot and I find it difficult to imagine any real Mason finding it a 'joke' if people were trying their best and had their hearts in the right place and were doing the Work. When "Traditional Observance" is trademarked you follow their rules do you not? I don't get the mass confusion, you all claim to be smart guys. Love and Light I have never made such a claim, nor do I recall any such claims from others. The FACT remains, there is NO rule that the lodge require a tuxedo. There is one for a uniform, yet that is fluid as earlier described. There is no confusion on this end. I am CLEAR on T.O. lodges.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 21, 2010 0:15:52 GMT
When "Traditional Observance" is trademarked you follow their rules do you not? I don't get the mass confusion, you all claim to be smart guys. Love and Light I have never made such a claim, nor do I recall any such claims from others. The FACT remains, there is NO rule that the lodge require a tuxedo. There is one for a uniform, yet that is fluid as earlier described. There is no confusion on this end. I am CLEAR on T.O. lodges. Read their articles yourself. The fact that all current TO lodges meet in tuxedos goes to show that they read their bylaws.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 21, 2010 0:22:40 GMT
I have never made such a claim, nor do I recall any such claims from others. The FACT remains, there is NO rule that the lodge require a tuxedo. There is one for a uniform, yet that is fluid as earlier described. There is no confusion on this end. I am CLEAR on T.O. lodges. Read their articles yourself. The fact that all current TO lodges meet in tuxedos goes to show that they read their bylaws. I have asked directly and received confirmation. The individual T.O. lodges do meet in tuxedos. I have not disputed this strawman of yours. It is not REQUIRED by the M.R.F. THAT is a fact, and confirmed by trusted brethren in T.O. lodges and on the M.R.F. board. You are confused.
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Post by magusmasonica on Mar 21, 2010 0:41:52 GMT
Read their articles yourself. The fact that all current TO lodges meet in tuxedos goes to show that they read their bylaws. I have asked directly and received confirmation. The individual T.O. lodges do meet in tuxedos. I have not disputed this strawman of yours. It is not REQUIRED by the M.R.F. THAT is a fact, and confirmed by trusted brethren in T.O. lodges and on the M.R.F. board. You are confused. Confused? The same way you where confused by the basics of PHA and mainstream basic visitation? I know it bothers you that I have a command of Masonic jurisprudence and protocol, but I suggest you learn to live with it. It will save on the cost of ant-acids. Love and Light,
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Mar 21, 2010 0:49:22 GMT
I have asked directly and received confirmation. The individual T.O. lodges do meet in tuxedos. I have not disputed this strawman of yours. It is not REQUIRED by the M.R.F. THAT is a fact, and confirmed by trusted brethren in T.O. lodges and on the M.R.F. board. You are confused. Confused? The same way you where confused by the basics of PHA and mainstream basic visitation? Is that relevant to the topic at hand in any way, or just a personal attack of a conversation on from another site as is purportedly prohibited by the rules here? Your claim, like the others you make, would have to be proven. I have been confused before, and admitted to it. That's the only way to grow. I may not always like the truth, but I far prefer the truth and endeavor to always speak the truth. I know it bothers you that I have a command of Masonic jurisprudence and protocol, but I suggest you learn to live with it. It will save on the cost of ant-acids. Love and Light, Whatever. It doesn't bother me at all that you are wrong and making claims you cannot back. It's par for the course. IF there is a requirement to wear tuxedos from the M.R.F. as you claim, prove it. It's simple as that. ;D
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