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Post by vajranagini on Oct 10, 2010 2:49:36 GMT
Anybody read chapter 72 of Crowley's "Confessions"? It deals with "the subject of [Crowley's] relationship with Freemasonry".; it is surely interesting that Crowley was asked by influential Freemasons in Detroit to "revamp" the Rites. Obviously, they would not have done this if they considered him "a fraud". I found his essay on "Why does a man become a Mason?" most enlightening, especially the statement that "freemasonry asserts that every man is himself the living , slain, and re-arisen Christ in his own person." Of course, I have already said elsewhere that Freemasonry is a living remnant of the ancient Rites of Osiris, (dating back at least 5000 years) the "Righteous King" and the PROTOTYPE for the 'sacrificed God' represented by "the Christ".
, It was only as obvious to me as a dog's balls, right from the day that my interest in Freemasonry was awakened, that it was based heavily on Qabalah., This chapter served to CONFIRM that impression. It is TRUE, as Crowley says, that the Hebrew used in Freemasonry is LOADED with errors, and quite egregious they are, too! I am quite sure that if MORE Freemasons were to study Hermetic Qabalah, there would exist a VERY GREAT POSSIBILITY that Freemasonry would 'arise once again' from the ashes like a Phoenix, but rare are the Brethren who can be bothered to make that effort!
In any case, it is INTERESTING, also, to read what he has to say about the HISTORY of Orders in Europe; much has been revealed to me by studying all the available history of Orders and then "putting two and two together." The fact is, is that Crowley was evidently ACCEPTED as a Freemason, and NO AMOUNT of huffing and puffing and refusal to "recognize" him will CHANGE THAT. He knew all the passwords, tokens, signs, and grips, and could speak authoritatively on the subject, more so than many 'genuine' Freemasons! True, he was a TOTAL JERK, and a SLEAZEBAG, but his particular shenanigans were nothing more than 'ahead of his time"; today almost NOBODY would bat an eye over anything he did!
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 10, 2010 12:47:27 GMT
au contraire Augur it was your post. I did read your post and you clearly said what I quoted you as saying. Which is why I was drawn toward the comment. I am one of those very odd people who try to bring some light heartedness into a conversation, in this case it would seem i have missed the target. Me neither.
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on Oct 11, 2010 19:03:57 GMT
Frauds are often successful in fooling people. That's what makes them Frauds. A good Fraud is still a Fraud.
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Post by vajranagini on Oct 12, 2010 1:25:40 GMT
I doubt very much whether a "fraud' would have gone to as much trouble over Freemasonry as Crowley did. He must have been one HELL of a 'fraud' if he had eminent Freemasons asking him to REWRITE RITES for them!
However, that being said, and having examined closely the "Secret Rites of the OTO", it must be said that I am reminded of Adam Weishaupt and his secret order of "Illuminati" that culminated in the membership discovering they were being led into sedition and treason. In Crowley's OTO, the membership essentially gets led by degrees [sic] into the clutches of the QLIPHOTH, as I have said! It is now no mystery to me why OTO attracts the type of people that it does! >shakes head<
I suppose that it CAN in fact be said that Crowley WAS "a fraud' in the sense that the membership is led to believe they are going towards 'the Light"; instead they are led into the bowels of EVIL. I do wonder what the Rites of OTO consisted of BEFORE Crowley got hold of them and perverted them to his sinister ends...are copies of pre-Crowleyan OTO Rites extant, does anyone know?
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 12, 2010 1:45:44 GMT
Yes, the rites are available.
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on Oct 12, 2010 2:59:55 GMT
I doubt there is a such place as 'the bowels of evil'. It's all pretty ho hum and humdrum in my opinion. Frauds can go to great lengths for power, and the examples are voluminous. Many Frauds buy into their own stories and they become even greater Frauds that way. Doesn't make the stories any more or less true. Every good lie is mostly true. ;D
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Post by vajranagini on Oct 12, 2010 3:11:41 GMT
I doubt there is a such place as 'the bowels of evil'. It's all pretty ho hum and humdrum in my opinion. Frauds can go to great lengths for power, and the examples are voluminous. Many Frauds buy into their own stories and they become even greater Frauds that way. Doesn't make the stories any more or less true. Every good lie is mostly true. ;D I doubt the people who have suffered at the hands of evil would agree with you that it is 'humdrum" or "ho hum".
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Post by vajranagini on Oct 12, 2010 3:13:12 GMT
Yes, the rites are available. To me?
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on Oct 12, 2010 3:23:42 GMT
I doubt there is a such place as 'the bowels of evil'. It's all pretty ho hum and humdrum in my opinion. Frauds can go to great lengths for power, and the examples are voluminous. Many Frauds buy into their own stories and they become even greater Frauds that way. Doesn't make the stories any more or less true. Every good lie is mostly true. ;D I doubt the people who have suffered at the hands of evil would agree with you that it is 'humdrum" or "ho hum". Good for them. It's always good to be skeptical. Note that I did say 'in my opinion', which is absolutely true, and that 'the bowels of evil' are not necessarily the same as 'evil', which can be displayed in far more mundane, albeit subjective, ways.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 12, 2010 11:32:20 GMT
Yes, the rites are available. To me? Since you have to ask, not likely. Like other initiatic orders they are available for the initiates.
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Post by aogop on Oct 12, 2010 18:19:40 GMT
I took the time during lunch yesterday to read Chapter 72 of his book, and I can't find anything where it says he was asked to rewrite anything. Perhaps if you could link the specific area or PM me with that part?
All I got out of it was a multi-page complaint about not being able to attend a UGLE- recognized lodge meeting, so he decides to go off and hang out with the MM crowd.
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Post by vajranagini on Oct 13, 2010 1:47:03 GMT
I quote from P. 707 "of the Confessions:
"I am thus in a position to do for the contending sects of freemasonry what the Alexandria ns did for those of paganism. Unfortunately the men who asked me to undertake this task are either dead or too old to take active measures and so far there is no one to replace them...."
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Post by vajranagini on Oct 13, 2010 1:52:31 GMT
I doubt the people who have suffered at the hands of evil would agree with you that it is 'humdrum" or "ho hum". Good for them. It's always good to be skeptical. Note that I did say 'in my opinion', which is absolutely true, and that 'the bowels of evil' are not necessarily the same as 'evil', which can be displayed in far more mundane, albeit subjective, ways. They do say that "Opinions are like assholes; everybody has one."
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Post by vajranagini on Oct 13, 2010 2:10:18 GMT
Since you have to ask, not likely. Like other initiatic orders they are available for the initiates. The same could be said of FREEMASONRY; yet I, a WOMAN, know just as much about the Rites of Freemasonry as any Freemason, because despite all the hooha about "keeping them secret" they are as available to the public as anything else out there! So it does not necessarily follow that the original Rites of OTO " are only available to the initiates".
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 13, 2010 3:37:32 GMT
Do you have the rites then? Why would you ask about them.
I do note in your Crowley reference above that the proof is his statement that they people that asked him to do so are not available for comment. I could say that there were many great Masons that asked me to do the same but they are all dead or infirm or not in a position to do anything about it. Of course I can't produce their statements, privacy and all. Was there anything in that passage that named names that can be verified?
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Post by vajranagini on Oct 13, 2010 3:58:17 GMT
Do you have the rites then? Why would you ask about them. Obviously, if I HAD them, I would not have asked if they were available. And why wouldn't I ask about them? I have the Crowley version of the notorious OTO Ninth degree; I am curious what the ORIGINAL Ninth Degree had to say before Crowley got hold of it. I do note in your Crowley reference above that the proof is his statement that they people that asked him to do so are not available for comment. I could say that there were many great Masons that asked me to do the same but they are all dead or infirm or not in a position to do anything about it. Of course I can't produce their statements, privacy and all. Was there anything in that passage that named names that can be verified? Crowley says "By the end of 1910, thanks to my relations with the Grand Hierophant 97o of the Rite of Memphis (a post held after his death by Dr. Gerald Encausse [Papus], Theodor Reuss, and myself) I was now a sort of universal inspector-general of the various rites, charged with the secret mission of reconstructing the entire edifice,which was universally recognized by all its more intelligent members as threatened with the gravest danger." I do not know what the name of the 'Grand Hierophant" was, but i imagine that would not be difficult to determine. He also goes on to say :" The O.H.O. put the rituals of this Order at my disposal" He is referring to Theodor Reuss, and the Order in question is the OTO. Crowley wrote his "Confessions' when he was about 45; that would have been in or around 1920, about 10 years after all this went down, . Oh and another thing; you ought to know that few people were aware that Crowley was writing under several aliases; apparently NOBODY knew that "Master Therion" was Crowley until almost 1930!
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 13, 2010 4:11:09 GMT
That is obvious to me but your follow up message implied or at least alluded to me that you already had them.
Again you have only been able to show that Crowley said he was special and important in the situation that you had spoken of previously (that being that he was specifically asked to rewrite rituals for people in Detroit).
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Oct 13, 2010 15:15:10 GMT
Good for them. It's always good to be skeptical. Note that I did say 'in my opinion', which is absolutely true, and that 'the bowels of evil' are not necessarily the same as 'evil', which can be displayed in far more mundane, albeit subjective, ways. They do say that "Opinions are like assholes; everybody has one." Yes, though it's important to not waste too much time on some of them.
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KNOs1s
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I am inclined agree or disagree based on the quality and quantity of proffered information.
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Post by KNOs1s on Oct 13, 2010 15:23:15 GMT
Since you have to ask, not likely. Like other initiatic orders they are available for the initiates. The same could be said of FREEMASONRY; yet I, a WOMAN, know just as much about the Rites of Freemasonry as any Freemason, because despite all the hooha about "keeping them secret" they are as available to the public as anything else out there! So it does not necessarily follow that the original Rites of OTO " are only available to the initiates". You claim that you are a woman and know the Rites. How do we know any of that is true? First of all, what is written down does not indicate a knowledge of the Rites, any more than reading the Bible makes you a Christian, the Koran makes you a Muslim &c. Those are words, and do not convey in-and-of-themselves a knowledge of the rights. It's easy enough to 'read' the Rites, yet I suspect the claim that you 'know' the 'secrets' of the Rites is pretty much proven untrue as you claim they can be known simply by reading them. Just as I cannot know you are a woman just by reading your statement.
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Post by vajranagini on Oct 13, 2010 23:14:50 GMT
You appear to be completely UNAWARE that there are time-honoured ways of "testing and trying" a person's claims to "higher knowledge", a lacuna which in its turn does not bode well for your OWN claims to knowledge!
In any case, "in my turban is only Truth"; I can rightly claim to have "seen the Sun at midnight."
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