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Post by Leo on Sept 21, 2010 17:46:21 GMT
Unless they are persecuted into atheism as they were in Cambodia, China, or the USSR. Or France. And when exactly where the French "persecuted into atheism?" Religion is a constitutional right in France; Wiki explains that in 2010 64% claim to be Catholic, 26% atheist/agnostic. Mind you, in 1965 81% claimed Catholicism as their religion, so things are down since then, but then again they are down all over as more people are making up their own minds on which path [if any] to follow. In any event, I don't see any evidence that the French were "persecuted into atheism."
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 21, 2010 18:11:03 GMT
billmcelligott wrote: It is the same if you wish to join the Catholic Faith for example, you join and take up the doctrine it offers. You cant say , 'well the Catholic Faith should include all the people who don't believe in God'.A different situation, of course, in that millions of people do not join the Catholic Church, but are born into it .... then gradually become atheists over time ;D That is not the point, many adopt the catholic Faith and in such cases my analogy stands. Well so does many things , including Freemasonry. Thaere is always a simple answer if you don't like what you HAVE joined then leave.
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Post by Zita on Sept 22, 2010 1:45:31 GMT
Satanists may proclaim a belief in a Supreme Being.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 22, 2010 5:45:18 GMT
Satanists may proclaim a belief in a Supreme Being. That's obvious. In the United States, they can even run on the Tea Party ticket. ;D
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 22, 2010 6:00:24 GMT
Unless they are persecuted into atheism as they were in Cambodia, China, or the USSR. Or France. And when exactly where the French "persecuted into atheism?" Good question, Brother. We know for certain that Catholic Priests (who themselves *may* have been guilty of crimes, or may *not have) were wholesale murdered indiscriminately: from: hnn.us/readcomment.php?id=18910&bheaders=1"As a secular Jew, I could easily say that I don't have a horse in this race. But I, and the rest of us do indeed, because if there is anything the last two centuries have to teach us, it is that anti-clericalism has been a hallmark of the most murderous totalitarian regimes. Unfortunately, Mr. Dresner fails to mention this (he does use a passive voice to blandly describe "confiscation of property" during the French Revolution, omitting the wholesale slaughter of priests by san-culotte gangs in the Lyon and Vendee regions during the Terror).
Religion is a constitutional right in France; Wiki explains that in 2010 64% claim to be Catholic, 26% atheist/agnostic. Mind you, in 1965 81% claimed Catholicism as their religion, so things are down since then, but then again they are down all over as more people are making up their own minds on which path [if any] to follow. hnn.us/readcomment.php?id=18910&bheaders=1In any event, I don't see any evidence that the French were "persecuted into atheism." No, and I think the statement was inaccacurate, and I apologize for the inaccuracy. The truth was, in my opinion, much worse. They were wholesale exterminated and murdered without getting the opportunity to recant and go to atheism (or whatever anti-Clerical movement was in force): From Wiki: In August, 1789, the State cancelled the taxing power of the Church. The issue of church property became central to the policies of the new revolutionary government. Declaring that all church property in France belonged to the nation, confiscations were ordered and church properties were sold at public auction. In July of 1790, the National Constituent Assembly published the Civil Constitution of the Clergy that stripped clerics of their special rights — the clergy were to be made employees of the state, elected by their parish or bishopric, and the number of bishoprics was to be reduced — and required all priests and bishops to swear an oath of fidelity to the new order or face dismissal, deportation or death
Victims of the Reign of Terror totaled somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000. According to one estimate, among those condemned by the revolutionary tribunals, about 8 percent were aristocrats, 6 percent clergy, 14 percent middle class, and 70 percent were workers or peasants accused of hoarding, evading the draft, desertion, rebellion, and other purported crimes.[7] Of these social groupings, the clergy of the Roman Catholic Church suffered proportionately the greatest loss.[7] Really, much worse in my book, Brother. Everyone deserves a trial, and none should be persecuted simply for their religious views, no matter how angry the French were. If the French wanted to prove the Catholic Church was evil, they failed miserably to show they were any better. Injustice is injustice. Turnabout is not fair play when it comes to just and right action.
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Post by Leo on Sept 22, 2010 6:58:35 GMT
Thanks Brother Kevin for that further explanations, I understand better where you're coming from now. I thought from your previous comments you were saying that the France of today was officially an atheist country such as China or Russia. Apologies for my misunderstanding. The French Revolution of 1789 was indeed an exceptionally turbulent period for that country’s history and in particular her religious people; however, in relation to the drive towards atheism the Revolution wasn’t “successful” when compared to countries like Russia and China. I found more on this here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheismAnd for those interested in an overall view of the French Revolution they might wish to check out this page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Sept 22, 2010 11:35:29 GMT
Satanists may proclaim a belief in a Supreme Being.
Yes, and speaking logically, that Supreme Being must be the Christian God. They might not venerate Him, but Satan in character as a rebellious angel can only exist in the Christian system.
If Satanists proclaim their Supreme Being to be Satan, that really just makes them Gnostics. Confused Gnostics, but what else is a Gnostic if not confused?
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 22, 2010 11:35:56 GMT
I think we have to be careful advent shows the following
Top 10 Largest National Christian Populations
Rank Nation Number Percent 1 USA 224,457,000 85% 2 Brazil 139,000,000 93% 3 Mexico 86,120,000 99% 4 Russia 80,000,000 60% 5 China 70,000,000 5.7% 6 Germany 67,000,000 83% 7 Philippines 63,470,000 93% 8 United Kingdom 51,060,000 88% 9 Italy 47,690,000 90% 10 France 44,150,000 98% 11 Nigeria 38,180,000 45%
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Sept 22, 2010 11:38:33 GMT
billmcelligott wrote: There is always a simple answer if you don't like what you HAVE joined then leave.
Oh yes. Or, stay and make it change!
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Post by Leo on Sept 22, 2010 11:44:06 GMT
Satanists may proclaim a belief in a Supreme Being.Yes, and speaking logically, that Supreme Being must be the Christian God. They might not venerate Him, but Satan in character as a rebellious angel can only exist in the Christian system. If Satanists proclaim their Supreme Being to be Satan, that really just makes them Gnostics. Confused Gnostics, but what else is a Gnostic if not confused? I personally do not know of any lodge that would welcome a new candidate if he/she said the Supreme Being they believed in was Satan.
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 22, 2010 14:53:31 GMT
Satanists may proclaim a belief in a Supreme Being.Yes, and speaking logically, that Supreme Being must be the Christian God. They might not venerate Him, but Satan in character as a rebellious angel can only exist in the Christian system. If Satanists proclaim their Supreme Being to be Satan, that really just makes them Gnostics. Confused Gnostics, but what else is a Gnostic if not confused? I personally do not know of any lodge that would welcome a new candidate if he/she said the Supreme Being they believed in was Satan. I highly doubt any Masonic lodge would accept a Satanist as a member, knowing him to be such. As I understand it, (I am not a Satanist so this is not from personal experience) *some* versions of Satanism are very much atheistic. I believe LaVey wanted his to be understood that way. Of course, he looked entirely ridiculous in his children's Halloween Devil costume. It was too small for him, for one thing. ;D Now, here's a truly frightening costume:
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 22, 2010 15:05:54 GMT
Thanks Brother Kevin for that further explanations, I understand better where you're coming from now. I thought from your previous comments you were saying that the France of today was officially an atheist country such as China or Russia. Apologies for my misunderstanding. The French Revolution of 1789 was indeed an exceptionally turbulent period for that country’s history and in particular her religious people; however, in relation to the drive towards atheism the Revolution wasn’t “successful” when compared to countries like Russia and China. I found more on this here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheismAnd for those interested in an overall view of the French Revolution they might wish to check out this page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_RevolutionThanks for the further information, Brother. No problem on the misunderstanding, as I did not state myself clearly enough.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 22, 2010 19:31:30 GMT
The obvious question about Satan [The Devil] is if he started life as a Cherub and was cast out of Heaven , then he can not be supreme.
We see here
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Post by Leo on Sept 22, 2010 22:57:41 GMT
Good point, and one I agree with; however, I think the Satanists of the world would disagree, for isn't it the individual's perception that he [Satan] is Supreme that counts and not someone else's opinion or view?
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Post by Leo on Sept 22, 2010 23:00:10 GMT
I personally do not know of any lodge that would welcome a new candidate if he/she said the Supreme Being they believed in was Satan. I highly doubt any Masonic lodge would accept a Satanist as a member, knowing him to be such. As I understand it, (I am not a Satanist so this is not from personal experience) *some* versions of Satanism are very much atheistic. I believe LaVey wanted his to be understood that way. Of course, he looked entirely ridiculous in his children's Halloween Devil costume. It was too small for him, for one thing. ;D Now, here's a truly frightening costume: Too funny, this
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Post by Zita on Sept 22, 2010 23:24:36 GMT
Do you believe in a Supreme Being? That is the question!
You are not asked to state who (or what) that supreme being is. There is no dogma in Freemasonry.... ie there are no hard and fast answers!
Freemasons tend to believe that God is Good. They are therefore predisposed to place their trust in the power of Good.
Be = to exist. Be-ing = existing.
We are taught that God is omnipotent, God is omnipresent, God is omniscient = therefore if one holds a belief that any single thing rules supreme... then one can honestly answer the question with a 'yes'.
(The nature of Good and Evil and their place in world thought is another subject entirely).
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Post by Leo on Sept 22, 2010 23:26:04 GMT
The obvious question about Satan [The Devil] is if he started life as a Cherub and was cast out of Heaven , then he can not be supreme. We see here Bill you, and possibly others too might enjoy reading the comments written by a Co-Mason in the US on Satanist and Freemasonry: www.masonicsecretsrevealed.net/freemasonry-degrees-rituals/
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Post by Zita on Sept 22, 2010 23:26:25 GMT
Same goes for the question in Rose Croix. We live in a 3D world after all.
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Post by torence on Sept 23, 2010 0:35:30 GMT
The latest cosmological thinking is that we live in an eleven dimensional world. With our characteristic love of Geometry, we should be able to share in the comprehension of God expressed in the additional dimensions. Geometry extends into the infinities of imagination and creativity. While Logic reduces and Arithmetic tames, Geometry expands into immortal beauties in realms beyond the skies. Geometry deals in length (1-the primary and infinite point), breadth (2- the secondary axis at right angles to the point), and height (3-the tertiary expression of volume). At the turn of the last century science added Time (4-the fourth dimension) and described how time can vary relative to the Infinite Point or Points either in steady progression or in pulses. FreeMasonry has always included reminders about Time in our work. We have for us an explanation about Ringlet counting and the knowledge that the number of our days are as blades of grass and we are as a singular flower in the field. We absorb His Grace (5-the movement of the primary) as symbolized by the Sun on the Senior Deacon’s rod and nourished by the rain from the Crescent or Wet Moon on the Junior Deacon’s staff (6- movement of the secondary) to produce the wealth we find in our friendships (7-movement along the tertiary) as expressed by the cornucopias displayed by the Stewards. We irradiate beauty for a time (8-the pulse of time) and are brushed by the wind, His Breath, (9-energetic radiation/absorption along the primary), His Word and the reminder of the Almighty Fiat (10-energetic radiation/absorption along the secondary) that as From Dust we were born to Dust we shall return; and all that will remain of us is Void (11-energetic radiation/ absorption along the tertiary), the shadowy matter and energy of Relationships. Hence we have for us in the furnishing of our Lodge a ready expression of God in Eleven Dimensions.
Fraternally, Torence Evans Ake Secretary - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois
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KNOs1s
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Post by KNOs1s on Sept 23, 2010 4:03:30 GMT
We are taught that God is omnipotent, God is omnipresent, God is omniscient = therefore if one holds a belief that any single thing rules supreme... then one can honestly answer the question with a 'yes'. (The nature of Good and Evil and their place in world thought is another subject entirely). That's true, although I'm not sure anyone brought that up in this discussion? If you are originating the discussion, I think the matter of Good and Evil and the Nature(s) of God merits its own thread. I'd like to discuss this, yet I fear that we would depart from the topic at hand. As you correctly state, it is another matter entirely.
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