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Post by billmcelligott on Nov 13, 2010 23:30:29 GMT
well, best answer is to examine the question. It can certainly be enough for you. Personally I have both, the physical world with all the questions that brings up and the spiritual world which is my Faith.
What man has to have, because it is in his nature, are answers to question. Where did I come from, where am I going and why. if you can find those answers in being a non believer thn great, no problem for me. i find them in the belief that there is some spark of a greater power that creates things from nothing.
If you can prove to me that the universe was created without a spark of divine intervention than we are in a different ball park.
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 13, 2010 23:32:44 GMT
I will try to answer your question simply. Not because you wont understand but because it is a private opinion and one that is personal to me.
I believe that Freemasonry is a system of Reintegration with God through The Christ
Now, if I am to hold firm on this foundation of my belief, how can I seriously hope to accomplish my goal with an Athiest by my side?
I am not being judgemental I am doing what I believe, if and when an Athiest can come to accept my belief I will happily accompany him on his journey. The door is always open but you must be prepared in your heart & mind to even attempt to begin it. (IMHO!)
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Post by asiinja on Nov 13, 2010 23:46:46 GMT
Go get those balls let me start.
I was raised catholic, in a progresive way as that goes in belgium. I defied those beleaves when I learned about the shadow of the cross as you could call it. But also due to my growing interests in psychology and science.
It was hard at first but I was in puberty so it did'nt matter, pubers do'nt need a reason to live. Pubers just evolve their social skills.
Gues I was different, when people asked me where I beleaved in I answered in myself. Some went further what does that mean?
I ignored it and thought about it. It being my strong personality or wathever I don't know i came up with this.
I beleave in myself, that I can acomplish anything as I realy wish for it with my full faith.
Wait I can hear you come...
What faith? Just the faith to be.
I did not need other faith, I went in search for myself during this, found parts of myself, got inspired by other religions and beleaved but never was there a supreme being included.
I started to study on to pagaism, budism, reincarnation, hindoeism, science, meta fisycs, beleave me I got quite some basics.
People asked so why are we here on earth? I answered simply, that I found it cheap to just answer everything because there is a suprememe being, why do you have to have an answer on such questions? and if you realy want an answer on them, search within yourself. You are the answer, we all are. Ask and you will recieve. sorry for the bible quote again. they just fit nicely.
So then I do not need answers wich I cannot find in myself, why is this all created? Because we imaginated it ourselves, because we want it to, because we let it, because it IS.
Everyone that has mastered budhism in a certain degree can join me in the fact that they have NO supreme being. Budha is a mere example of what you can achieve with budhism but he is NO god.
SO recently I found my so to called ideals leaning close to the beleaves of the jesuits or ancient beleaves of wath jesus told.
About brothership, about the good of men, peace, accepting, giving, love, ... I do not need a supreme being to beleave in that.
As I can accept one I do not need one and do not have one to be honest.
Search in yourself, if you need the help of a supreme beeing in order to do so, go ahaid, but don't judge those who do not want or cannot reach for a supreme being.
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 13, 2010 23:59:41 GMT
You spoilt it all in your last paragraph! You have no idea how much searching or what I have discovered! I do not know how old you are but you have an unfortunate arrogance about your writing which cries out 'Youthful inexperience' I do not have a problem with what you believe, yu need to not have a problem with what others believe.
I am right glad you have got what you have got, it is not me who is being judgemental, you are! Just because someones view doesnt fit with your own should not lead you to try to 'bully' them into your way of thinking. Freemasonry just doesnt work like that.
I am glad you dont need a belief in a Supreme Being (even though you have one). However you dont know what I know! You know what you know and that works for you, great! I am truly happy for you.
When you have had my experiences and know what I know maybe (just maybe) you would feel like me? I dont know because you have yours and they suit you real great.
Just stop trying to make me or anyone else feel we are wrong because you must be right!
Try in fact to practice what you are trying to preach!
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Post by asiinja on Nov 14, 2010 0:21:17 GMT
You spoilt it all in your last paragraph! You have no idea how much searching or what I have discovered! I do not know how old you are but you have an unfortunate arrogance about your writing which cries out 'Youthful inexperience' I do not have a problem with what you believe, yu need to not have a problem with what others believe. I am right glad you have got what you have got, it is not me who is being judgemental, you are! Just because someones view doesnt fit with your own should not lead you to try to 'bully' them into your way of thinking. Freemasonry just doesnt work like that. I am glad you dont need a belief in a Supreme Being (even though you have one). However you dont know what I know! You know what you know and that works for you, great! I am truly happy for you. When you have had my experiences and know what I know maybe (just maybe) you would feel like me? I dont know because you have yours and they suit you real great. Just stop trying to make me or anyone else feel we are wrong because you must be right! Try in fact to practice what you are trying to preach! Gues are talk is over then? Im just some 19 year old kiddo who is just not experienced enough. You know way more then I know? You do not judge me but I judge you? I bully someone? Since when is thinking about smething that is a rule or socialy accepted bullieing? Did I ever said that beleaving in a supreme being is wrong?? Did I? You hear me but you do not understand, you watch me but wont see me. You asked for a reason to start sudieng freemasonry without a supreme being, I gave you one, you asked on how this fisical reality as you call it exists, I gave you one. You do not even put effort in trying to discuss that you just say that I am wrong and that you have more lifeexperience. You have discovered stuff? Well tell me about it. Did you even rode my story? You are so dwelling in the skies that you do not anymore feel the very earth you are standing on. You have seen things, is that even a discusion? Make you feel wrong? If you truely beleave what you beleave then I can't bring anything against it. If you had putten effort to read everything I wrothe it would be quite obvious. But I am gonna leave it with this, I am just 19 right? What was I thinking starting a discussion about such topics with such people who know that mutch. But it is marvelous what the human mind does, I was coming from why are those without a supreme being not allowed and some stated that they are the same but due to tradition not allowed in the traditional lodges. Now we have come to the deeper meaning of what those same people where thinking. They think that one cannot achieve the same without beleaving in a supreme being. It was sad that we have to go trough such a discusion when you could have all just said that from the beginning. But hey, what do I know...
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Post by hyperion on Nov 14, 2010 0:21:52 GMT
Middlepillar, am I correct to assume that based upon your self belief as to the purpose of Freemasonry that only a Christian would truly benefit?
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Post by middlepillar on Nov 14, 2010 0:39:19 GMT
Middlepillar, am I correct to assume that based upon your self belief as to the purpose of Freemasonry that only a Christian would truly benefit? It depends on what you mean by truly benefit? I am sure that everyone that embraces Freemasonry (even Athiests) will benefit from its allegories and lessons to a greater of lesser extent! I am not going to expand on what I wrote earlier. Freemasonry is an individual journey different people will get out of it different things. Unfortunately asiinja has been quick to judge and when I point out he is quick to judge he says I am so it will only go round and round. His youth is his greatest asset! I will never make an excuse for what I believe and will defend my right to believe it. I never wish to ram my view down anyone elses throat, they must make thier own discoveries for them selves. I have never believed that Freemasonry is an easy journey and I dont think it should be made easier for those that are just beginning thier own one. Everyone must make thier own way, there are many doors and the ones you open are individual to you. I am happy on my path, I hope and wish everyone the same. You yourself are on a differnet more unconventional path from the majority of Freemasons and I also wish you the very best on yours.
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Post by hyperion on Nov 14, 2010 0:46:50 GMT
Middlepillar, I can appreciate and accept your answer I agree that Freemasonry is a personal association. If you know anything about the community to which I belong. You would know that we both value and encourage individuality and the personal journey.
Thank you for your posts.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 14, 2010 1:02:22 GMT
I wish to thank everyone too for their opinions and I am truely glad that this topic has gotten into a different direction.
I hope you can accept my opinion on this matters, and you just have to know that I am young if I say something that seems ridicilus to you, tell it and dont fire it back like a mirror. It would be more helpfull for me if you pointed where I was wrong. I do not need big words for it, I can face critisism.
I hope this cleared up things for some people.
Peace to all!
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Post by jayman on Nov 15, 2010 15:14:54 GMT
I wish to thank everyone too for their opinions and I am truely glad that this topic has gotten into a different direction. I hope you can accept my opinion on this matters, and you just have to know that I am young if I say something that seems ridicilus to you, tell it and dont fire it back like a mirror. It would be more helpfull for me if you pointed where I was wrong. I do not need big words for it, I can face critisism. I hope this cleared up things for some people. Peace to all! One needs to remember, that in Masonry, there is no right or wrong when it comes to religious belief. It is a personal matter. Some forms of masonry hold that a belief in a Supreme Being is an essential part of masonry. If you don't see it the same way, you join a different form of masonry. That being said, we shouldn't expect the differing forms of masonry to openly want to sit in lodge with someone with a differing view of the need for a Supreme Being. It doesn't mean that these masons feel the other is less of a mason. It means that they hold their own ritual in a certain place in their heart and wantt that maintained. This is really about what an individual wants from their masonry and how they participate in it.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 15, 2010 20:41:47 GMT
You should because you said you where a freemason.
I have heard freemasons in such lodges who want to sit with others too so it is just a rule. This rips away the freedom that is theoreticaly given.
You guys beleave this and we guys beleave that ....? Are you serious, do you know how far from the real freemason spirit you are away? Are you so blinded by the light that you cannot see your own feet anymore?
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Post by jayman on Nov 15, 2010 20:53:27 GMT
You should because you said you where a freemason. I have heard freemasons in such lodges who want to sit with others too so it is just a rule. This rips away the freedom that is theoreticaly given. You guys beleave this and we guys beleave that ....? Are you serious, do you know how far from the real freemason spirit you are away? Are you so blinded by the light that you cannot see your own feet anymore? Please do explain what this "real freemason spirit" is so I know how it is I am so far away from it.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 15, 2010 21:03:27 GMT
I don't know how it is but I think I understand what it is. Well I am talking about a small part of it ofcource.
To strenghen the bond and friendship between people who want to do so.
Pretty simple but more then enough.
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Post by jayman on Nov 15, 2010 21:13:53 GMT
To strenghen the bond and friendship between people who want to do so. Pretty simple but more then enough. Sorry, but you are incorrect. This is not the foundation or spirit of masonry. Never has been and never will be. That is not the reason for our being. You will have a tough time finding any books by legitimate masonic authors stating that friendship is our spirit.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 15, 2010 21:19:32 GMT
You are pretty good at turning sentences, outtalking topics and misinformating.
I said it was one of the concepts. I did not say it was the core of freemasonry.
And if you dont value it as important then I just don't know anymore.
Well to me it might as well be the meaning of life.
And I know as from the very FACT, that it is a VERY important facet in freemasonry.
To me personaly freemasonry seems:
friendship, selfdevelopment, conversation, accepting, ...
If I am totaly wrong, pleace correct me and give me your vision of it.
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Post by jayman on Nov 15, 2010 21:58:35 GMT
You are pretty good at turning sentences, outtalking topics and misinformating. I said it was one of the concepts. I did not say it was the core of freemasonry. And if you dont value it as important then I just don't know anymore. Well to me it might as well be the meaning of life. And I know as from the very FACT, that it is a VERY important facet in freemasonry. To me personaly freemasonry seems: friendship, selfdevelopment, conversation, accepting, ... If I am totaly wrong, pleace correct me and give me your vision of it. The core of Freemasonry is spritual development. This is well documented in hundreds of masonic books.
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Post by Zita on Nov 15, 2010 22:02:25 GMT
I don't know how it is but I think I understand what it is. Well I am talking about a small part of it ofcource. To strenghen the bond and friendship between people who want to do so. Pretty simple but more then enough. I would think it closer to the truth that Freemasons hopefully reach a point in their masonic journey where they become wise enough, strong enough and charitable enough to be a friend and support for all that cross their path. In Revelations, John is given the book to eat and it tasted sweet, but when in his stomach it turned sour. The lessons of Freemasonry, and all inspirational material, is sweet to the ear, but so hard to digest and put into action. Given that the symbols and allegories of the various types of Freemasonry are not too dissimilar, I see no reason whatsoever that they could not all sit in lodge together and benefit. I am more than happy to sit in lodge with an agnostic or an athiest. If one has lengthy discussions with those who profess a belief in God one often finds that the belief is more of a hope than anything ie when in difficulty or doubt do you actually talk to God, do you ask for guidance? Maybe Freemasonry could admit anyone who believed in Unselfish Love ?? It would save a whole lot of people a whole lot of trouble... and Rose Croix would benefit greatly.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 16, 2010 9:20:18 GMT
You are pretty good at turning sentences, outtalking topics and misinformating. I said it was one of the concepts. I did not say it was the core of freemasonry. And if you dont value it as important then I just don't know anymore. Well to me it might as well be the meaning of life. And I know as from the very FACT, that it is a VERY important facet in freemasonry. To me personaly freemasonry seems: friendship, selfdevelopment, conversation, accepting, ... If I am totaly wrong, pleace correct me and give me your vision of it. The core of Freemasonry is spritual development. This is well documented in hundreds of masonic books. So selfdevelopment, is it so hard to say, well you might have a point? Spritual develpment, insight, mental development, I think they are all part of personal development.
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Post by asiinja on Nov 16, 2010 9:20:46 GMT
I don't know how it is but I think I understand what it is. Well I am talking about a small part of it ofcource. To strenghen the bond and friendship between people who want to do so. Pretty simple but more then enough. I would think it closer to the truth that Freemasons hopefully reach a point in their masonic journey where they become wise enough, strong enough and charitable enough to be a friend and support for all that cross their path. In Revelations, John is given the book to eat and it tasted sweet, but when in his stomach it turned sour. The lessons of Freemasonry, and all inspirational material, is sweet to the ear, but so hard to digest and put into action. Given that the symbols and allegories of the various types of Freemasonry are not too dissimilar, I see no reason whatsoever that they could not all sit in lodge together and benefit. I am more than happy to sit in lodge with an agnostic or an athiest. If one has lengthy discussions with those who profess a belief in God one often finds that the belief is more of a hope than anything ie when in difficulty or doubt do you actually talk to God, do you ask for guidance? Maybe Freemasonry could admit anyone who believed in Unselfish Love ?? It would save a whole lot of people a whole lot of trouble... and Rose Croix would benefit greatly. I am glad that someone understands what I am trying to say.
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Post by jayman on Nov 16, 2010 13:46:20 GMT
The core of Freemasonry is spritual development. This is well documented in hundreds of masonic books. So selfdevelopment, is it so hard to say, well you might have a point? Spritual develpment, insight, mental development, I think they are all part of personal development. I didn't say personal development. I said spiritual development. There is a difference.
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