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Post by sammy on Oct 19, 2010 15:28:06 GMT
I thought I might help in getting this section growing. I had many discussions about the possible reality of what took place in the garden of Eden, but I wanted to see what you all might think about it. My thoughts are that the fruit eaten off the tree of knowledge was intentional. Why would God have created a place specific for these people but with a certain food that can have eternal consequence. It was said that Adam and Eve were conscious beings free of guilt and shame, wich to me implies the lack of subconcious memory or ability to access it. I think God wanted more then mindless pets for the rest of eternity and planned the fruit to be eaten but he couldnt just force it on us, we had to build our memory up for ourselves or we would never believe it. If this story did happen in this way that would make Adam and Eve the first humans able to retain and access memory. I think the knowledge of good and evil was simply the ability to remember what happened, and have that memory of past be actively influencing in the present. I think thier understanding was what good is love if you dont know you have it, or maybe good defines bad and likewise. The lesson I think was to be learned is that we need to take responsiblity for our own actions as well as others because we are all able to stumble, and also getting over our past to create our future since you cant take it back.
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ruffashlar
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Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
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Post by ruffashlar on Oct 19, 2010 15:58:24 GMT
The Garden of Eden is what is called a myth: not an untrue story (like, "you can't get pregnant of you have sex standing up"), but a story intended to illustrate a principle, and thus fill the gap between what we know and what we imagine to be true. These days, we call this kind of story "Scientific Theory".
The reasons for describing the Garden of Eden as a myth are, amongst others, that, if literally true, the story would describe events that are supposed to have taken place 6000 years ago, before the existence of the Hebrew language; and yet the characters in it have names which are recognisably Hebrew in meaning. Such as: Adam > Hebrew dam, "blood"; Eve > Hebrew hawwah,"life".
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Post by sammy on Oct 20, 2010 15:21:36 GMT
I have cosidered that route, even to go as far as picturing a lone couple on an island with some guy yelling through a swiss horn. Documenting and dictating thier actions like some strange ancient experiment. Funny but much less philosophical HAHA I just wonder the emphesis on a change taking place, perhaps in the couple themselves and had nothing to do with fruit. I also wondered if the tree of knowledge was a psychotropic plant, many varieties are found on islands and very potent. From what I understand things like "becomming a man" have varied widely in the past and still do presently, especialy depending on the region. This would be good motive to test a socialy free couple and see if they will avoid ingesting the plants. I didnt know that about the hebrew meanings, very interesting to the philosophy aspect. So before blood and life they were conscious beings but innocent (possibly meaning unborn or innactive?). I just find the whole story way too random to be made out of nowhere and still make it into the bible.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 20, 2010 20:41:13 GMT
You could have more fun with the phrase "clothed in coats of skin." That usually engenders some good discussion.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 21, 2010 10:58:56 GMT
When Adam and Eve were kicked out they were clothed in "coats of skin." An odd turn of phrase or just an awkward translation. The fall from grace due to the eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is an interesting story. What is wrong with knowing the difference? If they didn't know the difference how could they be punished for it? I don't have Genesis in front of me but wasn't there something in there about a concern that Adam and Eve had become like gods?
But I digress. Clothed in coats of skin could be a reference to a lowering of a state of being into the course matter that we all know and love so much.
Opinions?
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Post by sammy on Oct 21, 2010 12:30:41 GMT
The temptation was that the snake had said God didnt want them to eat the fruit because it would make them like God. I have also had discussions about them being innocent since how could they be punished for something they didnt know. If you look at the events though all that has really changed (asside from thier shame) is that they now have consequence, or being held liable for thier actions. Or even a better way to phrase it is owning up to thier actions, so they are thier actions and not what someone else wanted. Again leading toward God wanting it to have happened from the beggining.
Interesting phrase "become like God" knowing how time and space revolve, sounds alot like science and physics to me.
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Post by sammy on Oct 21, 2010 12:35:23 GMT
Its like this... they either stay the way they are (oblivious), or they take responsibility for thier actions and hold the knowledge of that outcome (good and evil).
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ruffashlar
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Post by ruffashlar on Oct 21, 2010 16:08:45 GMT
An odd turn of phrase or just an awkward translation.Both. The Bible wasn't hand-calligraphed by a bowler-hatted Englishman, you know But I thought it should have been obvious that "coats of skin" is a rather inelegant way of saying "animal-skin clothing". The fall from grace due to the eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is an interesting story. What is wrong with knowing the difference?Nothing. When I said the story was a myth, I didn't say it was one that was made up by the Bible writers. The same story, in all its essentials, is to be found in the general mythology of the ancient Middle East. And in those sources, the snake is already identified as the symbol of knowledge. In the Eden story, he is the guardian of knowledge, and this is accordingly a test of skill and courage: you have to get past the wily snake coiled in the tree to get at the fruit. Thinking about it logically, how else could Eve have plucked the fruit but by her own hand? Snakes don't have hands. If they didn't know the difference how could they be punished for it?That isn't Biblical logic. It's doing the forbidden act that's taboo, not knowing whether it was taboo in the first place. I don't have Genesis in front of me but wasn't there something in there about a concern that Adam and Eve had become like gods?You have the Internet, which has the Bible in it, if you'll but take a look. And yes, it does indeed say... For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
--Genesis 3:5 But I digress. Clothed in coats of skin could be a reference to a lowering of a state of being into the coarse matter that we all know and love so much.Oh yeah. Because the dust God made Adam out of was probably really aetherial cosmic dust. Or dark matter maybe. Or fairy poo.
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Post by rembrandt on Oct 21, 2010 17:23:21 GMT
What is this "internet" that you speak of? Just playing around with an interesting story.
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Post by whistler on Jan 12, 2011 4:35:19 GMT
Is it possible that God (The ultimate Creator) Made some Flesh and Bone object - full of Cells that "God" inhabits - and the Adams and Eves of ancient Lore started from there. Add an intergalactic Dimension- Did the Creatures from another Planet in another Galaxy Filled with the same "God filled Cells" Perhaps drop in on Planet earth and leave the Adam and Eve seed to flourish as they did. Like a Market Gardener sows cabbage seed in the fertile soil
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Post by sammy on Jan 12, 2011 4:56:36 GMT
Is it possible that God (The ultimate Creator) Made some Flesh and Bone object - full of Cells that "God" inhabits - and the Adams and Eves of ancient Lore started from there. Add an intergalactic Dimension- Did the Creatures from another Planet in another Galaxy Filled with the same "God filled Cells" Perhaps drop in on Planet earth and leave the Adam and Eve seed to flourish as they did. Like a Market Gardener sows cabbage seed in the fertile soil Id say this version has about as much merrit as any other. Maybe the beggining was actualy created in our future for that matter. I will say though that food has been my favorite part of Earth, luckily I have a high metabolism.
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Post by nventr on Jul 7, 2011 5:56:22 GMT
Sammy
Consider that Adam is the animus and Eve is the anima. The garden of Eden is the inner sanctum. Adam is made from the breath of God or Grace. Sometimes referred to as the "Kiss of God." The snake represents the upsurge of Passion or Kundalini. However, neither Adam or Eve have completed strengthening their primary characteristics. So, instead of being enlightened, they have caused a mixing of matter and anti-matter which causes Eden to be annihilated and the couple to be thrown out. In order for Adam/animus to find salvation, He must work for his bread(Grace). Her salvation is not found in the same way that Adam does, she is warned that she will suffer great pains of child birth(Killing ego, or being initiated)
This is also the journey from birth to adulthood. We are born whole and completely dependent upon our parents for care and support. When proper parenting occurs, this is a time of being in Eden. All is provided for us and we are learning and naming all the things around us. Then we prefer a side of the psyche, which separates the anima and animus. By the age of 1 year it is clear if the personality will be outgoing and adventurous or quiet and cautious. By the age of 7 we have fully differentiated and set the favored side of the psyche. In the ancient cultures, initiation took place around the age of 12. At that time boys became men and girls were eligible for marriage. They are forced out of our parent's care and into adulthood where they must work to eat and survive and/or endure child birth.
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Post by sammy on Jul 7, 2011 15:32:05 GMT
Probably the most sense I have heard about Adam and Eve, thanks Nventr!
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staffs
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Staffs
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Post by staffs on Jul 9, 2011 6:28:27 GMT
Sammy In the ancient cultures, initiation took place around the age of 12. At that time boys became men and girls were eligible for marriage. They are forced out of our parent's care and into adulthood where they must work to eat and survive and/or endure child birth. Very interesting and simple.. on a lighter side it sounds just like the current welfare state in Britain only nowdays the girls get given a Council Flat after chidbirth !!!! ;D
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Post by nventr on Nov 30, 2011 4:10:09 GMT
Guess the flaming cherubim only kept “Adam” out.
Society does a “Joseph" and understands that all children are creations of God. They have a heart and save the those born due to no fault of their own from death.
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Post by beersheva on Dec 6, 2011 2:03:08 GMT
1st, that part of "THE BIBLE" is part of the TORAH which JEWS interpret according to what is called PaRDeS, or GARDEN, meaning the GARDEN OF EDEN. 4 levels of interpretation. The 1st or literal level is the obvious text in the TORAH, sufficient for children or beginners. Attributed to the 1st letter P indicative of PASHAT, meaning obvious, literal. The next level is R for REMES, meaning a HINT, which is found in the way in which a phrase is worded, the ARAMAIC or HEBREW LETTERS used, their relative size, and so on. The 3rd level is signified by D or DRASH, the commentary in gemara, mishnah, the TALMUD. And finally, S signifies SOD or the secret meaning according to KABBALAH, the direct revelation from G-d. KABBALAH says that ADAM and EVE transgressed the prohibition NOT to partake of the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. This was a prohibition against descending to a lower realm on the ETZ CHAIM, TREE of LIFE, called OLAHM HA-BRIAH, or THE TREE OF METATRON. As the narrative states: They were naked in GAN EDAN, the GARDEN of EDEN, and felt no shame, but after the SIN, they were clothed with garments of SKIN, meaning that they fell from regions of PURE LIGHT where they existed in absolute harmony with G-d, but became sexually attracted to each other and "FELL" into the lower worlds by that means. AND, that all the souls that ever existed, were in the original soul of ADAM, and they also "fell" into the lower worlds, but soon, when the RAIN OF TORAH comes, it will cause all the HOLY SPARKS contained in all things to be raised back up to their respective regions of light that they fell from, at which time the RECTIFICATION of the SIN of ADAM and EVE will be completed, and all evil shall be romoved from the world, and mankind will enter OLAHM HA-BA, THE WORLD TO COME.
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Post by sammy on Dec 6, 2011 22:41:06 GMT
1st, that part of "THE BIBLE" is part of the TORAH which JEWS interpret according to what is called PaRDeS, or GARDEN, meaning the GARDEN OF EDEN. 4 levels of interpretation. The 1st or literal level is the obvious text in the TORAH, sufficient for children or beginners. Attributed to the 1st letter P indicative of PASHAT, meaning obvious, literal. The next level is R for REMES, meaning a HINT, which is found in the way in which a phrase is worded, the ARAMAIC or HEBREW LETTERS used, their relative size, and so on. The 3rd level is signified by D or DRASH, the commentary in gemara, mishnah, the TALMUD. And finally, S signifies SOD or the secret meaning according to KABBALAH, the direct revelation from G-d. KABBALAH says that ADAM and EVE transgressed the prohibition NOT to partake of the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. This was a prohibition against descending to a lower realm on the ETZ CHAIM, TREE of LIFE, called OLAHM HA-BRIAH, or THE TREE OF METATRON. As the narrative states: They were naked in GAN EDAN, the GARDEN of EDEN, and felt no shame, but after the SIN, they were clothed with garments of SKIN, meaning that they fell from regions of PURE LIGHT where they existed in absolute harmony with G-d, but became sexually attracted to each other and "FELL" into the lower worlds by that means. AND, that all the souls that ever existed, were in the original soul of ADAM, and they also "fell" into the lower worlds, but soon, when the RAIN OF TORAH comes, it will cause all the HOLY SPARKS contained in all things to be raised back up to their respective regions of light that they fell from, at which time the RECTIFICATION of the SIN of ADAM and EVE will be completed, and all evil shall be romoved from the world, and mankind will enter OLAHM HA-BA, THE WORLD TO COME. Thank you for the background Id say a bit more then a lil was lost in the translation HAHA.
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Post by nventr on Jan 7, 2012 16:08:17 GMT
A lot of us in the world do not ascribe to that fable. Agreed! It is my belief that we are all loved creations of God. It is our perceptions that keep us out of Eden.
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Post by mikedtk on Feb 1, 2012 23:44:55 GMT
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Post by nventr on Feb 2, 2012 3:24:02 GMT
The story of Lillith as Adam’s first wife is in the midrash. Which means it is just intellectual speculation.
The story of Lillith does/did not fit any of the spiritual models and was kept out of official scripture, for good reason.
It is a cute story, but nothing more.
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