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Post by jayman on Dec 7, 2010 18:35:45 GMT
many of the accusations thrown at the Templars were typical of the time. These were all accusations, using religion, to punish an enemy.
No different than some of the absurd accusations used during the various witch trials over the years.
If any of it had to do with Sufi teachings, the accusations would have been directed at that.
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Post by rembrandt on Dec 7, 2010 23:55:51 GMT
Sufism did not originate in Moorish ruled Spain. I am sure that it was there but tassawuf was extant before the invasion of Spain by the Moors. As to any Knight Templar alignments with any sufi orders, it is questionable. I have yet to see one shread of verifiable evidence of such a coalition and I would be happy to see it if it did indeed exist.
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 8, 2010 2:11:12 GMT
True, tassawuf hHAS been around for millenia, but it really did reach great heights in the most enlightened civilization of the last fifteen hundred years!
And, funny, Idries Shah himself draws parallels between Sufi and the Knights Templar in "The Sufis" (he goes on at some length about "Baphomet", f'r instance, and the "head" that the Templars were supposed to have "worshipped") and Freemasonry besides. Sorry, but I consider Shah much more of an expert on Sufi history and methodologies than YOU.
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Post by rembrandt on Dec 8, 2010 5:33:01 GMT
Idries Shah is rather recent. I would recommend Abdul Qadir al-JIlani "the Secret of Secrets" for a more complete academic understanding. Tassawuf reached remarkable heights well before the Moorish conquest of Spain.
You don't know me or the Masters that I have been blessed to have access to. Your understanding of tassawuf judging you by your statements on the subject is incomplete and limited.
No matter, do you have specific information or are you going upon vague statements of a man that claimed to be the Shayk al-Islam without anyone doing anything other than going about their work because it wasn't worth answering.
This subject, since you are interested, deserves some serious study. Would you consider the Templar lineage to be a fraud or involved in less than reputable actions?
As I mentioned earlier I would be happy to direct you to authentic Sufi masters that could assist you with this. "Understanding" or feeling that one understands tassawuf is not the same as being or BEING a Sufi.
You mentioned Idris Shah and his claims. It is funny that the vast majority of Sufi orders don't even reference him.
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Post by jayman on Dec 8, 2010 13:51:44 GMT
I think you have given to much to the theory of Templars aligning with the Moors of Spain.
The entire area of Southern France, where the original Templars originated, was the bed of Gnosticism.
And this isn't even my theory. Multiple scholars have all made the link between the Templars and the Gnostics. Perhaps you should be looking in that direction.
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 9, 2010 14:57:12 GMT
Interesting 'History Channel' program gave a very good run down of this history.
It is worth noting that the northern most borders of the Moorish Empire was only 200 miles from what we now call Paris.
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 11, 2010 2:30:59 GMT
Idries Shah is rather recent. I would recommend Abdul Qadir al-JIlani "the Secret of Secrets" for a more complete academic understanding. Tassawuf reached remarkable heights well before the Moorish conquest of Spain. And reached even GREATER heights in one of the greatest civilizations known to history. You don't know me or the Masters that I have been blessed to have access to. Nor do YOU know ME or who I have been blessed to have access to! Your understanding of tassawuf judging you by your statements on the subject is incomplete and limited. I would say the same of YOU. No matter, do you have specific information or are you going upon vague statements of a man that claimed to be the Shayk al-Islam without anyone doing anything other than going about their work because it wasn't worth answering. Actually, thanks to Shah, I have been able to access the wisdom of MANY masters, and have had MANY questions answered, simply by studying what they had to say! It is TRUE that book study is only useful up to a point. Direct wisdom is the state to aim for, absolutely. This subject, since you are interested, deserves some serious study. Would you consider the Templar lineage to be a fraud or involved in less than reputable actions? I have already stated what I personally understand as having happened to the Knights Templar. They wished to attain to greater and greater spiritual knowledge, but were BLOCKED by the sin of the Jerusalem massacre. They first therefore, had to 'atone" for that sin by sacrificing themselves, and thereby the knowledge they desired would come their way down the ages. I saw this all in a very vivid vision I had while meditating on them. As I mentioned earlier I would be happy to direct you to authentic Sufi masters that could assist you with this. "Understanding" or feeling that one understands tassawuf is not the same as being or BEING a Sufi. I never said it did. And I do appreciate your offer; however, if you could get me that clarification on the meaning of "Qarael', I would be MUCH MORE appreciative of your help! You mentioned Idris Shah and his claims. It is funny that the vast majority of Sufi orders don't even reference him .>shrug< But HE references THEM. That is MORE IMPORTANT, in my opinion!
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Post by rembrandt on Dec 11, 2010 5:20:40 GMT
I could reference a hundred turuq, would that increase my standing? Idries Shah is simply not the super-deper sufi that you seem to want him to be. He did sale a lot of books. I wonder what Bennett would have to say about him?
Regarding Sufism, can you name the sufi lineages that derive from or flourished in Spain and reached even greater heights? How do you determine that the heights were greater? My knowledge of tassawuf and futtuwah is not limited to books, it comes from direct experience and initiation.
Your words, earlier, were something to the effect of "to understand sufi is to be sufi."
Regarding the word "qarael," please provide the context in which the word is used. Semitic languages can be tricky. "Qarael" usually means "recitation." Trust me, I meditated on this.
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 11, 2010 21:40:37 GMT
I could reference a hundred turuq, would that increase my standing? Idries Shah is simply not the super-deper sufi that you seem to want him to be. He did sale a lot of books. I wonder what Bennett would have to say about him? Do you mean ALLAN BENNETT? The same guy that couldn't countenance the mechanics of human reproduction? Yeah, someone like that would have a REAL GOOD GRASP of spirituality! Anyone know what eventually happened to him? Regarding Sufism, can you name the sufi lineages that derive from or flourished in Spain and reached even greater heights? How do you determine that the heights were greater? My knowledge of tassawuf and futtuwah is not limited to books, it comes from direct experience and initiation. As is mine. The Tantrics say that a WOMAN can grasp concepts in a DAY, that will take a MAN over a YEAR to process. Prior to 2000 I read Shah and got nothing out of anything he said. After 2000 and my "Scarlet Woman" initiation I suddenly had a grasp of spiritual fundamentals that I had not had before. This, I am sure was due to my faith in Ramakrishna Paramahansa, a great Sufi in his own right. Your words, earlier, were something to the effect of "to understand sufi is to be sufi." Yes. I have understood the concept of "One of us" for a LONG TIME now. I just never had a NAME for it. Regarding the word "qarael," please provide the context in which the word is used. Semitic languages can be tricky. "Qarael" usually means "recitation." Trust me, I meditated on this. Okay, but what, exactly, is the significance of a "recitation"? Telling a story? Reciting a poem? A myth? The Mysteries were acted out in plays (Freemasonic ritual, f'r instance) and no doubt, there were "recitations" on the course of these; is this the allusion? Dr. Robert Svoboda holds forth about the transformational and archetypal power of "stories" in his book 'The Greatness of Saturn"; is this power of stories to cause transformation what is being referred to?
Shah, in "The Sufis" discusses the significance to the Sufi , of words and the root letters they are composed of, such as "FHM" (fehm) and "TRB" (troubadour). How does "Qarael" measure up in this regard? This is what I need to know; I ALREADY KNOW that "Qarael" means "recitation"; it's the subtleties SURROUNDING the word that need clarification!! PS; Thank you for your efforts thus far!
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Post by rembrandt on Dec 11, 2010 22:14:14 GMT
Yes, the same Bennett who had land conned out of the group and sold for Shah's personal benefit. Real good grasp of spirituality indeed. He got taken in on a land deal. Of course the taker is a spiritual master above all others so it is okay non?
To which Order of Tassawuf were you initiated? I am not sure what a scarlet woman initiation is, could you enlighten me on that topic? Initiation is something that happens in person, not astral, over the phone, through a book, or over the internet. It is in person and the baraka is transferred.
Regarding the recitation. Go to al-Fatiha and the Throne Verse. If that is not enough I recommend a real Sufi Master instead of a book much like I would recommend a real Masonic initiation instead of reading about it online. Be worthy and well qualified. Be ready to know that you are not already is possession of everything that you need. The subjugation of one's will to that of the Divine Will is a difficult process. Statements on the level of "I know because I meditated on it" are indicative of the worst evangelical, fundamentalist, or egoist. The nafs are invasive. So which subtlies are you interested in knowing about? Is it the word or the path that you are interested in?
Please do not take this discussion the wrong way. Discussions of this nature are by necessity direct in tone. Kalim al-batin.
I can promise you that reading a book offers no deep understanding of the Path.
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Post by maximus on Dec 11, 2010 22:53:01 GMT
Vaj, I really wish you would learn to use quote tags.
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 19, 2010 2:25:10 GMT
Yes, the same Bennett who had land conned out of the group and sold for Shah's personal benefit. Real good grasp of spirituality indeed. He got taken in on a land deal. Of course the taker is a spiritual master above all others so it is okay non? Well, I know nothing of this, personally. Isn't Shah supposed to be related to the Prophet and all that? in any case, he has written many good, informative books, and demonstrated a working knowledge of Sufi. What this all sounds like is some sort of 'sour grapes" to me. Looks like even Sufi is not above the very same sort of petty infighting and divisiveness that is the plague of spiritual orders everywhere! To which Order of Tassawuf were you initiated? None. I am not sure what a scarlet woman initiation is, could you enlighten me on that topic? To tell the truth, I'm not sure myself; it just HAPPENED. The lama read a few passages from a scripture and things began to happen. After that he told me about Red Tara and some of her attributes ("Lady of the Iron Hook") and those of her consort, Hayagriva, the "Supreme Stallion" Initiation is something that happens in person, not astral, over the phone, through a book, or over the internet. It is in person and the baraka is transferred. That is what happened. Regarding the recitation. Go to al-Fatiha and the Throne Verse. If that is not enough I recommend a real Sufi Master instead of a book much like I would recommend a real Masonic initiation instead of reading about it online. Be worthy and well qualified. Be ready to know that you are not already is possession of everything that you need. The subjugation of one's will to that of the Divine Will is a difficult process. Statements on the level of "I know because I meditated on it" are indicative of the worst evangelical, fundamentalist, or egoist. funny, didn't you just say this to ME in another post? The nafs are invasive. So which subtlies are you interested in knowing about? Is it the word or the path that you are interested in? I have been on the Path for YEARS now. I want to know the subtleties and implicationsof the WORD "qarael". How it is spelled, and the implications of its letter combination, as described in Shah's book "The Sufis". There, he goes on at some length about certain letter combinations, like TRB ("troubadour") and FHM ("black" "wisdom") and the various meanings attributed to those combination of letters in Arabic. Please do not take this discussion the wrong way. Discussions of this nature are by necessity direct in tone. Kalim al-batin. As long as YOU realize the SAME THING about what I say to YOU. I can promise you that reading a book offers no deep understanding of the Path. Of course not. But a long journey begins with a single step. And a sign, while not the destination itself, can point one in the right direction!
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Post by maximus on Dec 19, 2010 4:05:26 GMT
I thought you were "enlightened" and "awakened." Shouldn't you be able to stare at your navel and answer some of these questions yourself?
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 19, 2010 5:53:34 GMT
I can see by your remarks that you have no actual experience of the processes involved, so any explanation would only sound like 'confusion worse confounded' for you, but here goes:
In fact , I want the answer about this word from an "outside" source; the Internet is good for this sort of thing, since there is no possibility of "finessing" the answer. I do not know who "rembrandt' is and HE does not know ME. Therefore the reply he gives me is completely objective, and devoid of "influence". If HIS reply and the results obtained from MY meditations are in congruence, then the information I have received is accurate, and not a product of 'wishful thinking".
F'r instance, Years ago, when I started a series of meditations on the Square and Compass (I knew nothing about freemasonry other than my father had been one, and what I had just read about in "The Hiram Key".) I had an unshakable conviction arise in my mind that the "G" in the middle of the Square and Compass was actually supposed to be a "Q".
What a shock, then, to read, years later in "The Sufi's" that that is indeed the case! The "Q" is supposed to allude to "Qarael"; also, the placing of the Hebrew letter "Qoph" on an object designates it as 'sacred". This being so, then "Qarael" should then allude to "sacred recitation" probably of a myth. And , in fact this is so, for what are Masonic rites but "recitations" of the legend of "Hiram Abiff" and the concept of a Temple"? So, I am seeking further "light" on the mysteries of "Qarael", and I swore if I ever met a Sufi, I would ASK him about "Qarael" and what they could tell me about it!
So, that's as simple as I could make it for you.
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Post by maximus on Dec 19, 2010 15:08:21 GMT
I can see by your remarks that you have no actual experience of the processes involved, so any explanation would only sound like 'confusion worse confounded' for you, but here goes: I have quite a bit of experience, I just don't brag about it every chance I get. Oh, FYI, I have many contacts in esoteric circles, having been involved since 1973. 0=2 is not a grade in either OTO or GD, incidentally.
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Post by rembrandt on Dec 19, 2010 15:32:36 GMT
I have already pointed you in the right direction. I think that you first need a better grounding to get the most out of it.
Very blandly, meaning there is a lot more buried, The Recitation is intoning in a particular way with certain breathing practices and certain body motions in alingment. This produces are change in one's bio-chemistry which in turn changes one's brain functioning.
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 19, 2010 20:28:58 GMT
I have already pointed you in the right direction. I think that you first need a better grounding to get the most out of it.
Very blandly, meaning there is a lot more buried, The Recitation is intoning in a particular way with certain breathing practices and certain body motions in alingment. This produces are change in one's bio-chemistry which in turn changes one's brain functioning. [/size] GREAT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. That's EXACTLY the sort of information I needed to know! >happy dance<
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Post by vajranagini on Dec 19, 2010 20:32:48 GMT
I can see by your remarks that you have no actual experience of the processes involved, so any explanation would only sound like 'confusion worse confounded' for you, but here goes: I have quite a bit of experience, I just don't brag about it every chance I get. Well, bully for you, eh? Too bad it doesn't come through in your posts!Oh, FYI, I have many contacts in esoteric circles, having been involved since 1973. ...For all the good it's done you...0=2 is not a grade in either OTO or GD, incidentally. I never said it was at any time.
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Post by maximus on Dec 19, 2010 21:30:40 GMT
I have quite a bit of experience, I just don't brag about it every chance I get. Well, bully for you, eh? Too bad it doesn't come through in your posts!If you check through the posts over the past two or three years, you will see that I have a total of well over 3,000 posts on here. I have deleted my account and re-registered here about three times. There is a plethora of esoteric discussions I have engaged in here. It's done me a world of good. You see, there comes a point in one's development where one realizes that all the trappings, the rituals, etc. of occultism are unnecessary. They are a blind. Crowley knew this, and one day you will come to the same conclusion. It is expressed in Mavity's Law: 98% of esotericism is BS. You seemed to attach some significance to it, expressed in a form resembling the elemental grades of the GD. One can be forgiven from drawing a conclusion based on the inference. Incidentally, 2011, with the "11" turned on it's side like you were describing would be 20=. In 2110 it would appear as you described.
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Post by billmcelligott on Dec 20, 2010 1:51:57 GMT
Yankee Doodle went to town A-riding on a pony Stuck a feather in his cap And called it macaroni. Yankee Doodle, keep it up Yankee Doodle dandy Mind the music and the step And with the girls be handy
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