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Post by whistler on Feb 23, 2011 3:36:40 GMT
I have picked up this from a comment by Penfold on another Thread.
In our Workings we consider the progression of degrees continues up to 33 Degree. Beyond the 3rd Degree we work the 18th, 30th and 32 - the 33rd being the highest and is restricted to 3 Freemasons in each Country
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Post by rembrandt on Feb 23, 2011 4:50:14 GMT
There are some that believe that their organization is the be all end all of Freemasonry. They can be safely ignored as they have not taken the time to understand the difference between appendent body and a rite of Freemasonry.
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 23, 2011 9:19:15 GMT
The UGLE have tended to believe everything they think is absolute. It is an unfortunate habit they have.
There are however many Freemasons that hold the statement to be true I personally do not, so I will show why;
There are several systems of Freemasonry and UGLE's is only one.
There is the Scottish Ancient and Accepted Rite of 33 Degrees (otherwise known as Rose Croix) Although in UGLE and GLoS this system starts at the 4th Degree, people must remember in other GL's they work the complete system which makes 33 the highest.
In the Primitive Rite of Memphis & Misraim they have a Degree system which runs to 95, 96 or 97 so depending which one a Particular GL practices you have 95,96 or 97 as the highest.
The Rectified Rite (RER, CBCS or KBHC) has a system of 8 Degrees (6 open and 2 never discussed) Again the first 3 Degrees in England are never worked but in this system The Grand Profess is the highest Degree.
You also have the Swedish Rite which is in complete Amnity with UGLE which has a system of 9 (or 10) degrees.
There are others!
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 23, 2011 11:30:46 GMT
You have to first address why ?
Do you consider a 33rd degree mason to be more important a than a 3rd Degree Mason ?
Is Rose Croix a part of a Freemasons progress or does the journey have more than one part.
While it is right and proper that some orders wish to have their own view of what Freemasonry is, it does not automatically disqualify that view taken by UGLE.
It is a two way street if your order wishes to be recognized with its views then I contend that it is proper to give due respect to those who think differently.
UGLE Q&A =
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 23, 2011 13:32:23 GMT
You have to first address why ? Do you consider a 33rd degree mason to be more important a than a 3rd Degree Mason ? Is Rose Croix a part of a Freemasons progress or does the journey have more than one part. While it is right and proper that some orders wish to have their own view of what Freemasonry is, it does not automatically disqualify that view taken by UGLE. It is a two way street if your order wishes to be recognized with its views then I contend that it is proper to give due respect to those who think differently. UGLE Q&A = I am sorry Bill you are missing the point. We are not talking about orders! In Denmark they practice The Swedish Rite of Freemasonry, this is a GL in Amnity with UGLE! In thier system there are more than 3 Degrees. It is not a question of right or wrong here. There are lots of GL's around the World recognised by UGLE that have more than 3 Degrees in thier system. UGLE are not wrong and have done nothing wrong, but for a Forum that welcomes all GL's we should not state that there are only 3 Degrees in Freemasonry, it may well be true according to UGLE, but we have many members who are not UGLE, why do you wish to side line them? I am moe than happy to see all of our members discuss this but we as a Forum need to acknowledge the correctness of all of our members. I am sure you will find no matter which GL everyone believes once they have attained the Degree of a MM they are equal to anybody else, I know I do!
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 23, 2011 14:03:02 GMT
Me miss the point, when does that ever happen.
There are more than three degrees in UGLE Freemasonry, my point is or rather my question is, please identify what is being referred to. Rank or Superiority or what, no point in having a label if you don't know what it means.
What is not reasonable is to say, you can not dissmiss that there are 33 degrees in Freemasonry then in the same sentence dismiss that there is no HIGHER degree in Freemasonry. If one point of view is valid then the other is just as valid.
I simply pointed out that under UGLE to obtain what here is being described as a Higher degree you have to join another Order . You mentioned Rose Croix. This is a Christian based order which takes a different study of Freemasonry. Where mainstream UGLE there is no requirement for any Religious constraint. So there are 'Orders of Freemasonry' involved in any discussion relating to this heading.
The implication in being a 33rd Freemason is that they are superior to a 3rd degree Mason, my view is that is not the case. This is made clear in all the teachings of Freemasonry I have been party to. now of course that may be different elsewhere, I don't know. But as I am quite happy to have others say that the highest degree in Freemasonry is a 33rd degree I would expect them to be just as happy that I say there is no degree higher than a 3rd. Is that not what tolerance is ?
So I disagree, I have not missed the point.
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Post by whistler on Feb 23, 2011 21:27:05 GMT
I can only tell of the Flavour of Freemasonry In the Eastern Order we do not have separate administrations for Craft, HRA, Mark, Rose Croix etc we are all one. For us in our order we see our Masonry as a Progressive Path hence we do not consider we have reached the Apex in masonry when we have reached the third degree. As we progress to HRA, Mark, Rose Croix to 30th and 32nd we expect to gain more Masonic Wisdom and knowledge . So as I don't tread on any toes - for me personally in my Order of Freemasonry - I happily give appropriate recognition & respect to fellow Brn in our order who have a higher degree than I have attained. Bill I might add in our Order the 18th Rose Croix degree is not a Christian degree
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 24, 2011 1:47:09 GMT
whistler, I have to say I know a lot of 32nd Degree Masons that have, to me, no idea what Freemasonry is about, they just turn up a lot. nothing wrong in that , they like the banter the politics of Freemasonry etc, but none would say to a MM I am higher than you are. I find that comforting, i find that fits in with my expectations.
In the UK brand, it takes about 20 years to get to a 32nd degree. on average I would say. I should be at 32 but for ill health. I just have to keep turning up at my RX meeting and I progress thru - it helps when you have The Provincial Inspector General in your Chapter. They do keep a record of attendance and I have not been much over the past 8 years. But it does seem to be a reward for turning up. Great for the Guys who enjoy it.
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Post by whistler on Feb 24, 2011 3:54:31 GMT
Bill - I too have seen Masons of Higher degrees who I wonder about
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 24, 2011 17:02:30 GMT
Well that is kinda why I have to say something, for example i was chatting with an APGM and he said to me ' I don't think anyone should be a Freemason if they can not put their hands on £200 when asked to do so'.
I did not know what to say to him without offending, I wanted to say, 'so poor people can not be Masons ?' but I did not, not wishing to cause a problem.
So that is my point a Jerk is still a Jerk 32nd degree or not. The label does not make the Freemason, the Freemason makes the label.
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Post by anubis on Feb 24, 2011 17:26:43 GMT
There is a certain clique here in US Masonry who wish to impose extremely high yearly dues, I suppose to drive out the "undesirables," meaning those of us who aren't rich. Wrongheaded.
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Post by penfold on Feb 24, 2011 18:42:57 GMT
As whistler correctly points out - there are masonic orders that see a continuous path from 1-33, or even higher (or lower) - I should have qualified my statement a bit better - apologies if I have caused any offence
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Post by sammy on Feb 28, 2011 0:49:00 GMT
Wouldnt KT be a rank in addition to the 33rd?
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Post by corab on Feb 28, 2011 23:05:20 GMT
Well that is kinda why I have to say something, for example i was chatting with an APGM and he said to me ' I don't think anyone should be a Freemason if they can not put their hands on £200 when asked to do so'. I did not know what to say to him without offending, I wanted to say, 'so poor people can not be Masons ?' but I did not, not wishing to cause a problem. Good grief, you're more patient than I am - wisdom must come with the years! (there's hope for me after all ... ) Offense or no, I think I would have reminded him of that peculiar moment, poor and penniless, in the ceremony of initiation -- he sounds like he needs reminding of it. Oh boy, don't I agree with that - on both counts. My word. I must be getting mellow in my (early!) middle age ... With h.g.w., Cora
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Post by billmcelligott on Feb 28, 2011 23:32:25 GMT
Wouldnt KT be a rank in addition to the 33rd? Well it would depend if your order thinks that KT is a part of Freemasonry, it is a relatively new Order as far as Masonic History is concerned. The earliest reference in Freemasonry I believe is the 18th Century.
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Post by maat on Mar 6, 2011 22:28:42 GMT
You mentioned Rose Croix. This is a Christian based order which takes a different study of Freemasonry. Or so Christians have fooled you into believing. How about Kabalah, Qabalah or Cabala (the Christian version) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CabalaThe Trinity appears in all major belief systems - and psychology. The conscious, subconscious, superconscious functions could be described as P...P...K...
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Post by maat on Mar 6, 2011 22:33:49 GMT
i was chatting with an APGM and he said to me ' I don't think anyone should be a Freemason if they can not put their hands on £200 when asked to do so'. I would have asked him for the 200...
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Post by maat on Mar 6, 2011 22:44:26 GMT
Re: no higher degree than that of Master ...
In reality a Master is master of himself, and the elements and forces of the world in which he operates. A Master of a lodge, is embodying this principle. Being a Master of a lodge is nothing to get puffed up about, indeed, those who are most humbled by this role are the more masterly.
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Post by maat on Mar 6, 2011 22:46:27 GMT
The higher degrees illustrate the way things work and impose very serious obligations upon those who profess to be Masters.
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Post by sid on Mar 6, 2011 23:03:16 GMT
The higher degrees illustrate the way things work and impose very serious obligations upon those who profess to be Masters. Do true Masters profess to be Masters?
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