staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
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Post by staffs on Jun 17, 2006 11:37:30 GMT
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Post by ingo on Jun 17, 2006 11:46:37 GMT
Gio: Is this a joke with the Jesuits ad in Playboy or real? All: Looks familiar with german LDH. They react in the same way as UGLoE on internet. Good company. There is much fear behind that reaction. People make contacts withour lodge secrataries, learn to know other point of views, even become friends? ?? Frontiers are always of interest for gate-keepers.
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Post by ingo on Jun 17, 2006 11:48:41 GMT
I also have to state that this forum widened my perspective very much and I guess I never walk alone with that impression.
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bod
Member
UGLE - MM (London), MMM RAM(Middx), OSM (London)
Posts: 1,296
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Post by bod on Jun 17, 2006 12:00:35 GMT
Bod, Bill, I see what you're saying but that angle assumes that our respective Grand Lodges / Supreme Councils have 'the only true Freemasonry' and I don't buy that. Really? How do you get to that interpetation? I dont see it at all - they are saying if you want info on the practical matters of protocol, visiting, etc then head office is the best place to go for the correct answer. If you want an interpretaion of freemasonry a GL can give you an answer but its not the only answer. Which is kind of what you say in the next paragraoh of your reply - which confused me (easily done!) No idea never asked them, and don't really care either, this is a webspace created by Lee, that I participate in, and thats it, it has nowt to do with my GL.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 17, 2006 13:37:33 GMT
Bod, Bill, I see what you're saying but that angle assumes that our respective Grand Lodges / Supreme Councils have 'the only true Freemasonry' and I don't buy that. <-snip-> S&F, Cora Not really Cora , you will see it starts with "It has been brought to the notice of the Board that some Brethren are using the Internet not only to make contact with other Freemasons," It is the board refering to its own members, so it related to members of UGLE only. You must not think that this or any other forums or chat rooms have done anything wrong. I have been running forums for some 5 or 6 years now. I have never even received a letter or email by way of complaint. The only Grand Officers that have spoken to me have said they are happy with what we do collectively. MFoL is doing a good job, no doubt about that. But its like most of the things that come out of UGLE it all works on the honour system, they would ask if UGLE members follow this line. You can give an opinion thats fine, you can tell someone what you think policy should be. but if someone asks what is the rule on this or that a UGLE member should refer to the [downloadable] BOC. No member should put thmselves in a position of being an authority on Freemasonry, UGLE or otherwise.
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Post by wayseer on Jun 17, 2006 23:50:09 GMT
The way you are talking gives the impression that we will all soon be having web conferencing lodge meetings ! Hey Staffs, never thought of that - what a great way to go. That way I could cut down on driving around the country which at the escalting price of fuel threatens to become prohibitive. Staffs, I'm not necessarily talking about the building blocks of M, I'm talking about people - people with an ego that needs to be stroked continually. And it is this ego stroking that threatens M. Let me give you an example. Recently I attended an Installation - that is, the placing of a Brother in the Chair of KS. The whole experience was overshadowed by the pomp and bullshit that goes with the arrival, the presence, and eventual exit of GL officers. Nothing, nothing of their presence has anything to do with the ritual and symbolism that is attached to the Chair in the E. Talk about self-indulgent ego stroking. This type of 'symbolism' has nough to do with the building blocks of M but has everything to do with power and control - which extends to the free dinner afterwards. I would love to see these dinosaurs try to defend their position on the web. OK - I accept we need some centralised authority, but this is not what I'm talking about - I'm talking about the self-indulgent pompous crap that has nothing to do with the legend of HA and KS. Staffs - this is the 21st Century and younger Ms and not going to accept this behaviour as appropriate. I don't. The real problem surfaced afterwards - the same guys that came rolling in all dolled up into Lodge, were quite nice fellas oblivious to the way their presence cut straight though the ritual while in Lodge. I love M and fail to understand how such pomp and pagentry, power and control has anything to do with this ' peculiar sytem of morality'. Now, it maybe that I am missing something - that all this gold braid and self-indulgent self-promotion has a specific meaning - love to hear it - but you will have to explain how such behaviour equates with the square, the level and the compasses - particularly the square of Gs word and the C of their own conscious.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Jun 18, 2006 0:06:29 GMT
Do we 'need' some centralised authority???
I agree that it is easier to have an administrative body that supports the work of Lodges, and through which warrants are issued, but do not agree that we 'need' it.
The 'stronger' the centralising body is, the greater the consequence of splinter rival 'grand' bodies arising. If one reflects on the developments over the past century, what has occured is decentralisation, not increased centralising (that is predominantly a 19th century development).
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Post by wayseer on Jun 18, 2006 0:24:30 GMT
Point taken JMD
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 18, 2006 4:27:30 GMT
Bros Wayseer and JMD, I am with you there. It is amazing to think how the simple meeting of few London Lodges in a pub in London back in the 1700s has burgeoned into such a bureaucracy. Perhaps we need to get back to simpler times. Some have even compared UGLE (and no doubt other GLs by extension) to large Businesses, yet unlike these the "Shareholders" -Ordinary Members have little say in its running.
As to the attendance or lack of "Chains" at Installation Meetings. In London Craft Lodges we seldom have the Metropolitan Executive at our Installations unless it is a big number occassion, say a 75th or 100th anniversary or the likes. Their absence does not detract, the Ceremony is performed as it should be and a good time is had by all. I did however in January attend a Craft Installation in a Province where the Deputy PGM, a younger man, put everyone at their ease and wasn't in the slightest bit pompous or overbearing. Way to go!
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Post by lewfinnis on Jun 18, 2006 10:10:27 GMT
In most large businesses, the ordinary 'small' shareholder has no say at all in how the business is run, as the principal shareholders are the Financial institutions. There is at least some move in UGLE to widen participation but the challenge there is to make sure that the new body is not filled with those with a narrow interest, especially those wanting to maintain the status quo. With respect to the visits of Provincial teams to Installations - the norm here in the Midlands - most Lodges seem to look forward to it as (a) it maintains a personal link between the Lodge and the Province and (b) it - hopefully - allows the Lodge to show the Province what it can do in terms of ritual etc. The important point is that Province don't just sit there - the senior officer present delivers the Address to the new WM while the Provincial Wardens deliver the Addresses to the Wardens and the Lodge. It just helps make the WM's special evening that much more special.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jun 18, 2006 10:52:47 GMT
Gio: Is this a joke with the Jesuits ad in Playboy or real? No, absolutely real. A naked girl on a bed with the sentence: "follow me". Omnia munda mundis...
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 18, 2006 11:19:53 GMT
I wonder what Ignatius Loyola or Aloysius Gonzaga would have thought of that, Bro Gio?
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jun 18, 2006 11:24:52 GMT
YES, doubtless. The main task of the Jesuits is the glory and the welfare of the Order.
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Post by taylorsman on Jun 18, 2006 11:30:00 GMT
Agreed Bro Lew, but the small shareholders can and have got together and put the Board to the question at some big company AGMs, although the "Sids" are usually only interested in what dividend they get for their blocks of £100 or so shares and what profit they can make if they sell them at the right time.
I also hope that if changes come in, probably under Lord Northampton who I sincerely hope will soon become the next GM , these will not merely be a Palace Revolution with the same placeholders taking up the offices, "plus ca change, plus ca meme chose" as they say. It will be of interest to see who succeeds to the vacancy of Grand Secretary. I have heard a buzz and if it proves true the man who's name I have heard mentioned will be good.
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Post by wayseer on Jun 18, 2006 23:46:52 GMT
Lewfinnis - I am not necessarily against GL visiting - that is not what I object to - it's the pomp and paraphernalia that is associated with their arrival - and they can't even arrive on time - their presence and departure which detracts from the most important ritual of the year. If they want to support the M elect and the Lodge, great, but leave their beaucratic trappings at GL. (Mind you, if they left all their regalia back at Head Office, most of them would not come at all - and the free dinner).
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Post by maat on Jun 19, 2006 0:06:47 GMT
Now, it maybe that I am missing something - that all this gold braid and self-indulgent self-promotion has a specific meaning - love to hear it - but you will have to explain how such behavior equates with the square, the level and the compasses - particularly the square of Gs word and the C of their own conscious. Interesting question Wayseer. IF - the wearers of the gold braid had been of the calibre of Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, or that really honourable, hardworking, selfless person from down the road - would you feel the same about the traditional ceremonies? IS is just a matter or the cloak being too large for the person sometimes which makes it noticeable? In either case I think there is a lesson to be learned from it. In the first instance - Honour to the Honourable! In the second instance - if you act like this when you get there, you are going to look just as silly In our Lodge we have a tradition of Master - IPM - DC - Tyler (who has no say). In esoteric terms - it seems one of the GREAT CHALLENGES OF THE SOUL as we climb the ladder towards Light is selfish egotistical pride. And the higher up the ladder we are if this happens the greater we fall. So maybe pomp and circumstance has a place in that it tests us against the S...,L...,C... for when we get to the top we discover the ladder is a two sided one - and we need to descend. It is then that the triumphant become really useful and show others the way by resuming their selfless service. The others? (Brings to mind something my husband likes to say - be nice to them on the way up they are the same ones you will meet on the way down ) Maat
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Post by mike on Jun 19, 2006 0:40:58 GMT
I think that this topic would become more interesting if members of other Grand Lodges could supply the Internet policies of them, so that we could compare.
Just a thought.
M
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Jun 19, 2006 1:47:23 GMT
Here, thus far, there is no stated policy regarding the internet.
Afterall, either current regulations reflects Masonry, or another innovation is made.
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Post by wayseer on Jun 19, 2006 5:27:48 GMT
Maat - you make good points but your example of Gandhi and Mandela is probably wide of the mark. Gandhi did not obtain any office, nor promoted to any office, nor held any office, nor had any gold braid - rather a self-spun linen garment and a humility that still has the world guessing. Mandela did hold office but his initiation was 28 years in prison. Both, I would suggest, would feel distinctly uncomfortable in the presence of overt self-indulgent pomp.
All - I think one of valuable aspects of the web is that it allows this questioning of 'tradition' - that we 'can' talk about issues which are of concern without fear of some form of social ostracism - very democratic - in fact, web forums are perhaps a step back into the past where codes and secret words facilitate the meeting of like-minded free-thinking souls who can meet and talk and think without public disclosure - which was the very essence of M initially.
So, I don't think members of GL will be a rush to join us - this jurisdiction is not in their control.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 19, 2006 7:05:34 GMT
Now , I like this.
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