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Post by windtimber on Apr 17, 2011 2:55:11 GMT
Actually I am talking about the items to the left of the central keystone, the pick crossed by a shovel and a "crow". The other, to the right, looks like an urn of some sort; the smaller details hovering above it are not clear. OK. The tools are easy. The other items...well, you've got a ways to go. You are right, the central image includes scissors, or SHEARS, more accurately ("scissors" have two equal-sized finger-holes, "shears' have one large and one small). The three items appear to be shears, square and a tape measure. I am wondering if this has something to do with a sail-making guild or something...I don't believe a 'square' would be a part of a tailor's collection of tools (despite the fact that fabric must be "on grain" before it is cut, or else the finished garment will 'torque' around the body) but it might be for a maker of sails, since they worked with very large pieces of cloth... But why are they there and what possible connection to Freemasonry do they have? Keep trying. But, I am quite satisfied that I, a non-Mason, correctly identified the "penny" itself as being associated with HRA Freemasonry OK, good for you.; the imagery on these items likely varies, as I said, from Lodge to Lodge, and so serves as an "identification" token. Wrong, more or less.
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Post by sammy on Apr 17, 2011 3:20:37 GMT
Note the "set square" and "T-square" in the picture for sewing tools. Its possible they would just use the husbands if they needed one. Which would be the traditional "square".
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 17, 2011 4:19:24 GMT
Actually, I have never been happier to be wrong; I had always wondered if there had been tailoring/stitchery/sewing guilds of any kind about back in the day, and here, with the display of this coin, I am reassured that such things DID in fact exist; it is indubitable. It was not the sort of thing people would talk about or leave many records of lying around, and when these guilds finally died out, being replaced by machinery, there would have been none to mark their passing...
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Post by sammy on Apr 17, 2011 13:21:42 GMT
Actually, I have never been happier to be wrong; I had always wondered if there had been tailoring/stitchery/sewing guilds of any kind about back in the day, and here, with the display of this coin, I am reassured that such things DID in fact exist; it is indubitable. It was not the sort of thing people would talk about or leave many records of lying around, and when these guilds finally died out, being replaced by machinery, there would have been none to mark their passing... I agree, people just needed clothes. Im sure most didnt think it had to get recorded everytime. After what it took to find what I did about them, id say I was lucky to find that much.
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 18, 2011 22:19:39 GMT
Actually I am talking about the items to the left of the central keystone, the pick crossed by a shovel and a "crow". The other, to the right, looks like an urn of some sort; the smaller details hovering above it are not clear. OK. The tools are easy. The other items...well, you've got a ways to go. Well, I am not really feeling any urgency to identify every last one of them; after all they were likely peculiar to one's lodge or to the particular Rite of Freemasonry and to know what every little symbol and rune represented...well, that would surely serve to winkle out impostors wouldn't it? You are right, the central image includes scissors, or SHEARS, more accurately ("scissors" have two equal-sized finger-holes, "shears' have one large and one small). The three items appear to be shears, square and a tape measure. I am wondering if this has something to do with a sail-making guild or something...I don't believe a 'square' would be a part of a tailor's collection of tools (despite the fact that fabric must be "on grain" before it is cut, or else the finished garment will 'torque' around the body) but it might be for a maker of sails, since they worked with very large pieces of cloth... But why are they there and what possible connection to Freemasonry do they have? Keep trying. Maybe they were "makers of regalia". That would be a specialized field of Masonic endeavour, surely...after all, ecclesiastical regalia was made by nuns or by pious (and, probably, wealthy) women of the local community. Plus, it would surely be important for the edges of Masonic aprons to be 'square and plumb"! But, I am quite satisfied that I, a non-Mason, correctly identified the "penny" itself as being associated with HRA Freemasonry OK, good for you.; the imagery on these items likely varies, as I said, from Lodge to Lodge, and so serves as an "identification" token. Wrong, more or less. You must be more specific: what, exactly was 'wrong'? The fact that the imagery varies, or that they are used as 'identification tokens"?
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Post by windtimber on Apr 22, 2011 21:15:37 GMT
"[T]he imagery on these items likely varies, as I said, from Lodge to lodge, and so serves as an "identification" token."
The imagery does vary, but not by Lodge. They do "identify" something. But are not for identification.
Oh, by the way, you're making the symbols in the center too complicated.
Have fun.
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 22, 2011 22:07:51 GMT
"[T]he imagery on these items likely varies, as I said, from Lodge to lodge, and so serves as an "identification" token." The imagery does vary, but not by Lodge. By rank then. They do "identify" something. But are not for identification. They identify someone serving as a "messenger from the Lodge" ("DDGM", f'r instance) , maybe?Oh, by the way, you're making the symbols in the center too complicated. In what way? In that they are meant to identify the general (all sewing guilds), rather than the particular (sailmakers, f'r instance) ? Have fun.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 23, 2011 12:47:49 GMT
Actually if one is a Hermetic Qabalist, one DOES in fact "know more about Freemasonry than Freemasons." Nobody who was not a Freemason could have spoken so knowledgeably about the Rites otherwise. Seems like a case of wanting to keep one's cake and eat it too.
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 23, 2011 20:49:15 GMT
It does, doesn't it? But the fact is, Qabalah gives you a comprehensive understanding of symbolism, which plays a HUGE role in Freemasonry; most Freemasons can only "parrot' what they were told in Lodge, while an "outsider' learned in Qabalah can more or less read Masonic symbolism like a BOOK.
The second statement refers to the fact that non-Masons who actually know about Freemasonry and who are conversant with the Rites are few and far between; most people who are not part of the dynamic seldom bother to get involved to the extent of studying the Rites in depth, therefore if someone CAN speak knoweldgeably about them, it's a pretty safe bet they themselves are a Freemason!
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Post by windtimber on Apr 23, 2011 22:05:26 GMT
It does, doesn't it? But the fact is, Qabalah gives you a comprehensive understanding of symbolism, which plays a HUGE role in Freemasonry; most Freemasons can only "parrot' what they were told in Lodge, while an "outsider' learned in Qabalah can more or less read Masonic symbolism like a BOOK. Well, no offense, but your "read[ing] Masonic symbolism like BOOK" isn't quite working as regards the specific question posited in this thread. Also, while you make the indictment that "most Freemasons can only 'parrot' what they were told in Lodge" you would well be surprised by the depth of insight demonstrated by many traditional Freemasons. Introspection and humility, both taught by our rituals, keep many tongues, appropriately, silent.
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 23, 2011 23:04:28 GMT
It does, doesn't it? But the fact is, Qabalah gives you a comprehensive understanding of symbolism, which plays a HUGE role in Freemasonry; most Freemasons can only "parrot' what they were told in Lodge, while an "outsider' learned in Qabalah can more or less read Masonic symbolism like a BOOK. Well, no offense, but your "read[ing] Masonic symbolism like BOOK" isn't quite working as regards the specific question posited in this thread. The scissors, right? True, they are a symbol I have not encountered before in any Masonic text; however, if they are meant as a symbol, then they represent severing or cutting off; generally symbolism is quite literal. Could be, they represent Atropos,(the cutter) the third of the three Fates, the other two being Lachesis (the measurer) and Clotho(the spinner) but this doesn't seem very likely, and, if that were what was meant here, then there would be a spindle and not a square. Methinks the centre design may refer to a particular subgroup within the HRA. Also, while you make the indictment that "most Freemasons can only 'parrot' what they were told in Lodge" you would well be surprised by the depth of insight demonstrated by many traditional Freemasons. Introspection and humility, both taught by our rituals, keep many tongues, appropriately, silent. True enough. But I did not mean my statement as an 'indictment'; that is YOUR interpretation. It was merely an OBSERVATION, based on my personal experience. It isn't all that difficult for a clever-boots like myself to determine whether someone is deliberately "keeping silent" or if they simply "don't know". Like we say in the OTO: "A King may choose his garment as he will; there is no certain test; but a beggar cannot hide his poverty..."
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 24, 2011 10:06:18 GMT
Symbolism , like beauty is mostly in the eye of the beholder.
Myself, being from a working life of building and construction, I look at a pair of scissors and think that in order to make a coat or dress I must use the scissors to cut the cloth in order to make the garment. So they are an instrument of creation.
You simply see them as a divisive or destructive symbol.
The scissors would be used with a table square in order to keep the cloth straight, I know because I have watched as cutters in a factory cut large volume cloth for the making of shirts. They would see the scissors and the square as completely compatible as a positive symbol.
So being a 'clever boots' in no passport to being correct. Even the Kings cloths would be made using some form of square and scissors.
Perhaps a few minutes thinking of 'The King's New Clothes. A Modesty Parable. By Julie Austin.' would be good about now. It was a 'commoner' boy who said 'The King is in his altogether', was it not.
Humility is a lesson it is never too late to learn. Here endeth the Masonic lesson of this day with....
Yes you are absolutely correct knowing the ritual, seeing the symbolism just like reading many books does not a Masonic mind make. It is how you treat others that demonstrates to the world, if you have learned or disregarded the wonderful teachings within Freemasonry.
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 24, 2011 21:55:13 GMT
Symbolism , like beauty is mostly in the eye of the beholder. Myself, being from a working life of building and construction, I look at a pair of scissors and think that in order to make a coat or dress I must use the scissors to cut the cloth in order to make the garment. So they are an instrument of creation. True. But still, first they must 'destroy' the integrity of the cloth in order to 'create"...
Of course, in the old days, cloth was actually not 'cut into" if it could be avoided, because cloth was a valuable commodity. Shirts and dresses were made with the full length of cloth, pleated and shaped to fit instead of cut to conform with the desired design, because in that way cloth could be preserved and later re-styled into another form when the previous one fell out of fashion. It is only these days, when cloth is produced by machines and so readily available that we can afford to cut cloth up into shapes and to 'waste' fabric.You simply see them as a divisive or destructive symbol. "Destruction" is as necessary and vital a force in the Cosmos as is "construction". Dion Fortune said it best: .."It has been said that "good' is that which is constructive, and "evil" is that which is destructive. How false this philosophy is we see when we try to classify, according to this principle, a cancer and a disinfectant...." (The Mystical Qabalah, "Geburah, The Fifth Sephirah", #4.The scissors would be used with a table square in order to keep the cloth straight, I know because I have watched as cutters in a factory cut large volume cloth for the making of shirts. They would see the scissors and the square as completely compatible as a positive symbol. I have already stated this in a previous post; fabric cut off-grain (off the square) makes an unwearable garment.So being a 'clever boots' in no passport to being correct. Even the Kings cloths would be made using some form of square and scissors. Perhaps a few minutes thinking of 'The King's New Clothes. A Modesty Parable. By Julie Austin.' would be good about now. It was a 'commoner' boy who said 'The King is in his altogether', was it not . Are you perhaps referring to the old fable of "The Emperor's New Clothes?" Humility is a lesson it is never too late to learn. Here endeth the Masonic lesson of this day with.... Funny, I always saw that story (if we are talking the same one in essence) as one that decried hypocrisy and slavish group-thinking; the boy came out and actually said straight what everybody was thinking but didn't have the nerve to say; dunno where "humility" enters in there...Yes you are absolutely correct knowing the ritual, seeing the symbolism just like reading many books does not a Masonic mind make. It is how you treat others that demonstrates to the world, if you have learned or disregarded the wonderful teachings within Freemasonry. Funny, I get the impression I am being "lectured" here; I thought I was talking on a message board, merely stating my own views in my own way, and not "treating others" in any particular way unless their behaviour towards me warrants a reaction ; if anything, I myself have been the recipient of much rudeness for doing nothing much more than this, and yet I seem to be the one getting the lecture! Funny, that!
I would have to say (straight out, like the boy in the fable) , in fact, that in light of my experience, I'm not the ONLY one here who needs to review their "Masonic teachings"!
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 24, 2011 22:51:24 GMT
Oh, I was in my common uneducated way trying to be a little comical , the 'Emperors' clothes was adapted by Danny Kay in a song called the 'Kings New Clothes', in which the small boy sang ' The King is in the altogether - the altogether - the altogether etc.'. Obviously it derives from the Old Fable of the 'Emperors New Clothes'.
Humility starts with not referring to oneself as a 'clever clogs'. To stop making each post sound and look like a lecture in higher education and to stop and think when another of equal intellect tries to point something out in a gentle manner. Unfortunately with some the only symbolic tool that is understood is a sledge hammer.
My Masonic teachings have been honed and fired many times over many years and accepted in many places all over the world, I have nothing to prove. I will let the audience decide.
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 25, 2011 3:43:12 GMT
I've been remaining quiet myself. Don't want to have to shout to be heard over all the thunderous self promotion lately. Who else should I be promoting then? You? ;D
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 25, 2011 4:20:39 GMT
Oh, I was in my common uneducated way trying to be a little comical , the 'Emperors' clothes was adapted by Danny Kay in a song called the 'Kings New Clothes', in which the small boy sang ' The King is in the altogether - the altogether - the altogether etc.'. Obviously it derives from the Old Fable of the 'Emperors New Clothes'. Ah, I see. Unfortunately, while of that generation, I watched very little TV even as a child, so your allusion was lost on me. So, while I know who Danny Kaye was, I am not familiar with his song repertoire.Humility starts with not referring to oneself as a 'clever clogs'. Actually, as a Canadian, I may well not be familiar with the full connotations of the phrase; perhaps we have an "international misunderstanding"....I meant it also in a humourous way; I meant it as in "smart alecky know-it-all", and not in self-praise of my intellectual capacities. Perhaps "clever boots" has another meaning to the British-based that I am not acquainted with... To stop making each post sound and look like a lecture in higher education Sorry, I have been often told that I am "a bit of a pedant". I guess this is what they were talking about. and to stop and think when another of equal intellect tries to point something out in a gentle manner. >opens eyes wide< Oh, but I DO. I stop and think "I am perfectly aware of the point you, my intellectual equal, are trying to make to me about my particular style of posting; I am just not interested in mending my ways under your dictation; indeed, under anyone's dictation!Sorry if it bothers you, but that's as far as it gets with me.".
You have to admit: things are more interesting around here since I arrived. Board traffic is up, too. I've been tracking it. That's got to be good for YOU in some way! Unfortunately with some the only symbolic tool that is understood is a sledge hammer. Or, a "crow" , maybe? ;D
We still haven't figured out about the scissors! I am curious to know whether this was some sort of token carried by DDGMs of Lodges connected with sewing and tailoring...Windtimber has not responded to my previous post yet...My Masonic teachings have been honed and fired many times over many years and accepted in many places all over the world, I have nothing to prove. I will let the audience decide. Just so. That's what I have been doing all along.
Obviously , YOU are well qualified to "test and try" the calibre of my remarks on Freemasonry; that is precisely why all the show of "pedantry". You may have "nothing to prove" but I do. After all, I am a newcomer, and you have been here all along. How else are you to "gauge my level" if I don't talk about what I know?
It is for you to decide whether what I say about Freemasonry has any merit...however, that being said, it cannot be denied that what is "true" in one Freemasonic district is not necessarily "true" in another;I think you will agree that there are fundamental differences in UGLE Freemasonry and, say, the Freemasonry of a district in Northern Canada....if I am discussing details of the HRA Rite common to the nineteenth century, and your experience of HRA Rites is limited to that of modern day HRA we are bound to come to disagree sooner or later...
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 25, 2011 9:45:22 GMT
I've been remaining quiet myself. Don't want to have to shout to be heard over all the thunderous self promotion lately. Then todays lesson has been of some use. The ritual I use tells us. "Suffice it to say what you find praiseworthy in others , you should carefully imitate. What in them you find defective, you will in yourself amend. " It is a simple lesson that only those who have repeated it hundreds of times seem to really understand. You could read it in a text book and never give it a second glance. but the ancients like myself have had these things drummed into us over and over and over again. I can still hear my old Mentor Roy, telling me 'Son, don't just say the words, think about what they mean'. I am still trying Bro. Roy, hope he can still hear me from the Grand Lodge above.
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 25, 2011 10:08:07 GMT
vajranagini
did it serve any purpose to say ' you meant 'The Emperors New Clothes' ? Other than to point out to the reader that you had a better or higher level of knowledge than I did. you could have just accepted that the point was made and move on. but instead of tackle the issue your first thought was to put down the education level of the poster.
It is a common argument tactic. if the opposing advocate is stupid then I must appear to be clever.
'Clever Boots' derived from the term 'Clever clogs' 17th Century mill workers used the term clogs , wooden Clogs would have been more in use at this time. as the industrial revolution progressed it turned into 'Boots' as in 'Sly Boots'
No problem with talking about Freemasonry and having opinions that are at variance, no problem at all. That is what we are here for.
Sure, no single Masonic body has rule over any other, the ritual, the performance, the chronicles may be very different. What should not change is the core belief.
My old pal Theron in my opinion said it best, 'It is not about me changing them, it is about me changing me'.
So in short it matters little who is right and who is wrong, what matters is what effect has it had on you.
P.S. ... In 2009, Grand Master Daniels wrote: "When the Grand Lodge of Canada was formed in 1855, English Emulation Ritual was adopted and it has been maintained in its purity with very minor alterations in the subsequent one hundred and fifty-four years."
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Post by macb on Apr 25, 2011 11:56:36 GMT
We still haven't figured out about the scissors! I am curious to know whether this was some sort of token carried by DDGMs of Lodges connected with sewing and tailoring...Windtimber has not responded to my previous post yet... Hello all , I have spent a long time reading through this forum and thought I would finally create an account . Yes , this question has already been answered . This is nothing more than the "Mark" of the owner of said coin . Take the mark on my coin when I became a Mark Master , I worked on the river as a towboater , I was a pilot/captain , so there is a ship/boats "steering" wheel , before that I was an engineer , so over top of the wheel are crossed wrenches , and before that I was a deckhand so the wheel & crossed wrenches has a lock line (rope) encircling them . It was my trade that I loved so I used it as my "Mark" and this is what this Mason did with his , he used the tools of his trade as his "Mark" . And more than likely this Mason had his coin engraved professionally , as I too had to send my coin off to be professionally engraved . It now hangs in a frame at my York Rite bodies with other coins with unusual "Marks" .
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Post by macb on Apr 25, 2011 12:40:41 GMT
I would like to add , I have seen coins with Marks of crossed hammers (the Mason was a carpenter) . One Mason I know used a rendering of a cutting torch as he was a steel worker . A loan officer many years ago used dollar signs . One Brother in my Chapter used a couple of working tools of a Mason not because he was a Freemason but because he was a real operative Mason . And the list goes on .
You are looking for something that is not there . This is someone's personal coin and the scissors have personal meaning to the Mason , but not to Freemasonry .
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