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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 27, 2011 8:20:14 GMT
Just enjoying keeping the toes curled.
Yes, but forest and trees ?
from the abundance of pennies we can see that they are made for a specific purpose or a specific Chapter, so I would say that someone speculated earlier these are made for a particular Chapter. i found a similar trend with lapel pins.
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Post by macb on Apr 27, 2011 9:57:57 GMT
Great find Bill , I was going to make a trip to my Masonic temple and see if I could find a coin that matches the one pictured , but now I do not need too as you have done the work for me . Sycamore Chapter No. 49, also has one that also matches the OP's photo .
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Post by macb on Apr 27, 2011 10:18:54 GMT
I understand the confusion with the scissors though . Who would think that a Freemason would go to such extremes to create their Mark as in the photo or one like mine , instead of something simple . But as mentioned in a previous post , we are speculative Masons , and seeing how we do not need to mark our work , we are free to make our Marks as elaborate as we like .
Also , I could see where this penny could have been made up for a specific Chapter , or a specific purpose such as a member was a tailor and had pennies made up to hand out to other members as a gift . But it would still be for that specific Chapter and/or member(s) .
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 28, 2011 1:54:35 GMT
Hmm, yes, I see many tokens closely resembling my husband's token here; the faceted edges and the symbol of the cup overlaid with a heavy braided line and surrounded by many cryptic symbols; methinks there may be an allusion to the mysterious 'cupbearer' of the Sufis here. After all, at one time Freemasonry was conducted in the upper rooms of bars ( the drinking songs and 'firing glasses' are extant), so these tokens might well have some history in that regard...
>strokes chin thoughtfully< What I want to know is: were these "pennies" actually legal tender? Were they in general circulation amongst the populace or were they only distributed and kept as the "token' of "grip, sign and...") among Freemasons?
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Post by windtimber on Apr 28, 2011 2:07:40 GMT
...What I want to know is: were these "pennies" actually legal tender? Were they in general circulation amongst the populace or were they only distributed and kept as the "token' of "grip, sign and...") among Freemasons? There's literal; there's esoteric; there are some things that are only learned through ritual initiation. Lacking the third point, one never knows if they are looking too far in either of the other two directions.
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Post by vajranagini on Apr 29, 2011 0:16:18 GMT
You wouldn't be referring to the Second Degree, would you? Seems to me I recall something about "wages"...this could be the 'tender" such wages were paid in!
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 29, 2011 6:08:01 GMT
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 29, 2011 21:56:03 GMT
No it explains the reference to a penny a day, , the reference to wages in the second degree is the wages of the FC. - middle Chamber. different reference.
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Post by vajranagini on May 1, 2011 19:46:23 GMT
No it explains the reference to a penny a day, , the reference to wages in the second degree is the wages of the FC. - middle Chamber. different reference. Ah, I see. Yes, I am familiar with the Teaching story of the workmen's indignation at the latecomers being paid equal wages; I did not know they handed out "tokens" upon that occasion as well, but now I do. It is interesting is it not?- that Freemasons were allowed to make metal disks strongly resembling coins AND with words proclaiming a monetary value stamped upon them yet, and all this without reprisal from any government! There is quite likely significance to the fact that a "penny" represents ONE "unit of monetary significance". When I went to examine the Masonic token I have access to here, I noticed an interesting thing: The disk edges are faceted on one side and rounded on the other. I was not able to access the link given on this page so am only assuming other "pennies" are shaped in a similar way, and that this is NOT "accidental"...
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Post by vajranagini on May 1, 2011 19:55:25 GMT
Also these "blobs" are not "cotton , what is pictured is nothing more than a pot of incense , the "blobs" is smoke from the burning incense . But feel free to continue speculating . Thank you for the addition, cotton was just my strongest inclination at the time. Incense would make much more sense as cotton isnt usualy seen flying. Ah, incense. I believe there was a famous engraving of the High Priest wearing the lamen of the Twelve Tribes on his breast and holding out a censer of incense in Hall's "Secret Teachings". incense is pretty much the most important part of the ritual. I have made incense in my day, and once was able to obtain the same grade of frankincense used by the Vatican for its own incense...SUBLIME. I would also like to experiment one day with making a hallucinogenic incense with the flowers from my 20-year-old Angel-Trumpet datura.
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Post by windtimber on May 1, 2011 21:06:13 GMT
Thank you for the addition, cotton was just my strongest inclination at the time. Incense would make much more sense as cotton isnt usualy seen flying. Ah, incense... Maybe it's incense...then again, considering the tools over on the left hand side, maybe it's something else. Hallucinogenic incense? The traditional, speculative Masonry in which I work uses the mind, not pharmacology, to reach a higher plane. I presume your father's and grandfather's Masonry eschewed the use of hallucinogens as well.
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Post by billmcelligott on May 1, 2011 21:33:18 GMT
Incense will conform with Holy Royal Arch. reference is made to the alter of incense and within one of the lectures there is reference to the Priest walking upon the Mosaic floor with incense. The incense being a symbol of purification.
Most historians will tell you it 's original job was to overcome the smells. but that would be a form of purification.
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Post by sid on May 2, 2011 0:16:47 GMT
Thank you for the addition, cotton was just my strongest inclination at the time. Incense would make much more sense as cotton isnt usualy seen flying. Ah, incense. I believe there was a famous engraving of the High Priest wearing the lamen of the Twelve Tribes on his breast and holding out a censer of incense in Hall's "Secret Teachings". incense is pretty much the most important part of the ritual. I have made incense in my day, and once was able to obtain the same grade of frankincense used by the Vatican for its own incense...SUBLIME. I would also like to experiment one day with making a hallucinogenic incense with the flowers from my 20-year-old Angel-Trumpet datura. ...a dangerous game
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Post by vajranagini on May 2, 2011 2:58:05 GMT
Maybe it's incense...then again, considering the tools over on the left hand side, maybe it's something else. Hallucinogenic incense? The traditional, speculative Masonry in which I work uses the mind, not pharmacology, to reach a higher plane. I presume your father's and grandfather's Masonry eschewed the use of hallucinogens as well. I don't know about my father's Lodge's position on the subject, but my mother told me that my grandfather flatly refused to join the Shriners. Thinking back on 't , I would guess that grandfather, being a Royal Canadian Mounted Police magistrate and thereby getting to see for himself the havoc that Demon Rum wreaked among the native populations in the wilds of British Columbia in Canada, didn't want anything what-so-ever to do with involvement in drinking alcoholic beverages. I can understand that; I myself do not drink alcohol in any form, nor have I ever indulged to any appreciable degree, not even as a teenager.. I have only ever been close to "tipsy" once in my life, and the hangover I had the next day was so savage that I have never had a drink since.
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Post by vajranagini on May 2, 2011 3:26:50 GMT
Ah, incense. I believe there was a famous engraving of the High Priest wearing the lamen of the Twelve Tribes on his breast and holding out a censer of incense in Hall's "Secret Teachings". incense is pretty much the most important part of the ritual. I have made incense in my day, and once was able to obtain the same grade of frankincense used by the Vatican for its own incense...SUBLIME. I would also like to experiment one day with making a hallucinogenic incense with the flowers from my 20-year-old Angel-Trumpet datura. ...a dangerous game Not as dangerous as you might think, but not to be treated lightly either. I have done some interesting experiments with ritual consecration on the effects of various mind-altering substances, and found there is in fact a distinct difference in the results obtained from their use, often to a marked degree...I was taught this method by an Aghori Tantric; it is called the "Soma Yajna". But I should not be discussing these things here; that's more OTO territory... ;D
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Post by vajranagini on May 2, 2011 3:31:49 GMT
Getting back to these Masonic coins, I will also remark that none of the mysterious marks on the coins with the 'cup' symbol are in fact Hebrew. They look almost runic or even Greek. I am sure their history and origin would make interesting reading! the cup symbol is also not quite a cup, either... In fact, it looks almost like a hieroglyph.
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Post by macb on May 2, 2011 10:44:14 GMT
Maybe it's incense...then again, considering the tools over on the left hand side, maybe it's something else. Why do you say that ? Because of the tools on the left side IS why it is a good indicator that it is incense . The working tools of a Royal Arch Mason and incense play a part during the Royal Arch Degree . Could you elaborate as to why it would be something else because of the tools ? Only curious as to your thoughts on this .
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Post by billmcelligott on May 2, 2011 11:08:52 GMT
Vaj, you do not seem to be familiar with Royal Arch freemasonry.
The "K.S.H.T.W.S.S.T." symbol on a headstone indicates that the person had completed the crytic degrees of the York Rite and was a "Royal Arch Mason" in the York Rite Degrees of Freemasonry.
The Pick, Shovel and Crow, are central pieces in the Furniture of Royal Arch and take a central role in the ritual.
The Jar to the left can be nothing else than incense I would say.
The only point of discussion should be the scissors and the tape.
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Post by windtimber on May 2, 2011 21:31:13 GMT
Maybe it's incense...then again, considering the tools over on the left hand side, maybe it's something else. Why do you say that ? Because of the tools on the left side IS why it is a good indicator that it is incense . The working tools of a Royal Arch Mason and incense play a part during the Royal Arch Degree . Could you elaborate as to why it would be something else because of the tools ? Only curious as to your thoughts on this . I could, but prefer not to on a public board nor with someone "who is not a well known brother." Feel free to contact me privately if you'd like.
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Post by vajranagini on May 3, 2011 0:18:44 GMT
Vaj, you do not seem to be familiar with Royal Arch freemasonry. The "K.S.H.T.W.S.S.T." symbol on a headstone indicates that the person had completed the crytic degrees of the York Rite and was a "Royal Arch Mason" in the York Rite Degrees of Freemasonry. The Pick, Shovel and Crow, are central pieces in the Furniture of Royal Arch and take a central role in the ritual. The Jar to the left can be nothing else than incense I would say. The only point of discussion should be the scissors and the tape. Hmmm, looks like you need to go back and read my posts more carefully:All kidding aside, I would respectfully point out that the whole of the Royal Arch Degree hinges on the keystone, and that is what is depicted here ;I submit that this is not in fact a penny as such but is in fact a Masonic token of the sort handed out as a token [sic] upon the successful completion of the [Holy Royal Arch] Degree. I have seen the one belonging to my husband and it looks very "penny-like" except that it is larger than a penny (Canadian pennies were quite large at one time) and the symbols have been reduced to mere stylized squiggles. I can't quite remember all of the [keystone] inscription, but it goes something like "H.T.W. sends to K.S." The only thing I got wrong about this token is that it is a "Mark Mason"'s token... I also remarked earlier that the pick, shovel, and crow are all tools associated with HRA Freemasonry .The squiggles I am referring to as 'not Hebrew"are on the OPPOSITE SIDE of the token from the keystone marking. As for the mark, well, scissors and measuring tapes are used in sewing; the Mason in question was most likely to have been associated with the garment or tailoring industry.
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