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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 25, 2011 11:34:15 GMT
Tarot was not widely adopted by mystics, occultists and secret societies until the 18th and 19th centuries. so we are referring here to cards which only relavitely recently were adopted by the Mystics, before that they were used to play games, original dates or records seem to indicate mid 15th Century.
The above illustration is : In the Rider-Waite-Smith deck, the Devil sits above two naked human demons—one male, one female, who are chained to his seat. The Tarot Devil card is derived in part from Eliphas Levi's famous illustration "Baphomet" in his Dogme et Rituel de la Haute Magie (1855).
so we come back to the question of the origin of the symbolism. This Tarot Card has most likely the same Origin as that which is used to blacken freemasonry 'Levi' and while the mystics will give a long list of what represents what. In real life the vast majority of the public see the Devil as represented on the above card as Evil.
[Wiki] Eliphas Levi says in his book, Transcendental Magic, its Doctrine and Ritual that:
"A reversed pentagram, with two points projecting upwards, is a symbol of evil and attracts sinister forces because it overturns the proper order of things and demonstrates the triumph of matter over spirit. It is the goat of lust attacking the heavens with its horns, a sign execrated by initiates."
The only links that I can find between it and Freemasonry are the 'Taxil Hoax' and 'Waite'. Both links are surrounded in suspicion.
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Post by matt on Sept 25, 2011 13:37:04 GMT
Thank you Bill. Again, I'm only demonstrating how many people view it.
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 25, 2011 18:33:09 GMT
Sure Matt, but with us both here we get balance.
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frater209
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Post by frater209 on Sept 26, 2011 1:51:10 GMT
"A reversed pentagram, with two points projecting upwards, is a symbol of evil and attracts sinister forces because it overturns the proper order of things and demonstrates the triumph of matter over spirit. It is the goat of lust attacking the heavens with its horns, a sign execrated by initiates." Also of note is the fact that Levi's Baphomet in no way displayed an inverted pentagram, but clearly showed an upright one, representing the triumph of spirit over matter. Levi's rendition had no people pictured with it, much less chained to its pedestal. Levi's rendition showed the torch coming out of Baphomet's head and yearning (or at least sending its flames) upwards towards the heavens. The rendition in this tarot card is holding the torch in his left hand and pointing it downwards, again suggesting affinity with a chthonic rather than a heavenly current. All of these differences altar the symbolic significance of the figure drastically and are in contradiction to the classical Baphomet we've been discussing. Quite simply they aren't the same and while it is true that this tarot card was inspired by Levi's Baphomet, it remains but a bastardization of that symbol, and irrelevent to our current conversation, IMO. Fractal3rd's original question was: "I was wondering what the baphomet has to do with freemasonry (if anything at all) – and what its significance is." And I have said that I would post my opinions. In my mind the question of his significance must be answered before the question of what he has to do with freemasonry. I have refrained from posting due to time restraints and because I'm as yet unsure just how to structure the post. Basically though, I will show a small handful of Baphometic symbols which I think are obvious upon glancing at it. I will give my opinion(s) as to their significance and possible meanings, then I will show for each symbolic concept at least one place in blue lodge degrees where the same "Baphometic" concept (as I have envisioned it) appears. So please do bear with me! In response to Huw's demands I cannot show that the word Baphomet appears in Masonic ritual, because we all know it does not. But, not only did Fractal3rd never ask if that word appeared, I myself never claimed that it did. All I suggested was the possibility that baphomet (meaning the initiatory symbols represented by this figure) may well appear in masonic rites in another guise.Thats is what I meant when I said "a rose by any other name is still a rose." Take Osiris for instance. The word Osiris never appears in Blue Lodge ritual (that I can remember anyways!) But the mysteries of initiatic death and resurrection, and therefore at least a part of the Osirian mysteries, are represented in blue lodge. Just as Osiris in this way has significance to Freemasonry (which is what Fractal was asking about), I will show that Baphomet, too, has Masonic significance. HaHa! or at least I keep saying I will! Just gimme time to get the post together, I'm pulling double duty at work today and tonight, literally. --Fr. 209
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Post by huw on Sept 26, 2011 4:25:18 GMT
Hi 209. Quite simply they aren't the same and while it is true that this tarot card was inspired by Levi's Baphomet, it remains but a bastardization of that symbol, and irrelevent to our current conversation, IMO. I agree, they're not identical images. But the central figure is pretty similar, and I'm sure that's what most people would see rather than the fine detail ... and me too, although my own impression is not the main point. ... I will show for each symbolic concept at least one place in blue lodge degrees where the same "Baphometic" concept (as I have envisioned it) appears. Well, with some effort it's possible to contrive an interpretative chain which force-fits almost any pre-determined meaning to almost any symbol. A demonstration that you can devise some interpretation of the Baphomet image (or details thereof) which overlaps with some masonic concepts wouldn't actually be proving anything, nor showing the image to be a masonic symbol. All it would achieve would be to hand free ammunition to our opponents. Gee, thanks. All I suggested was the possibility that baphomet (meaning the initiatory symbols represented by this figure) may well appear in masonic rites in another guise.Anything can represent anything else if you twist the natural meaning enough. If you can do it for the Baphomet, I'm sure you can also (for example) do it for Bill's tarot (above) of the Devil. And whose interest would that serve? (Clue: not ours.) But the mysteries of initiatic death and resurrection, and therefore at least a part of the Osirian mysteries, are represented in blue lodge. Just as Osiris in this way has significance to Freemasonry ... Dangerous anti-masonic nonsense! In numerous ancient religious rituals, probably including the Osirian mysteries amongst others, there was a re-enactment of a resurrection myth which was a core belief of that religion. In freemasonry, however, there is no resurrection myth. Our legend deals only with someone who dies and stays dead, so the meaning of what we are doing is completely different. Thus suggesting that Osiris has "significance to freemasonry" is gravely misunderstanding what freemasonry is about. This isn't even a "matter of opinion" issue, since it's perfectly clear from our rituals, and (because of misunderstandings by some churches) is reinforced by explicit statements from various GLs that our legend is definitely not an alternative resurrection myth and should not be misinterpreted in that way. If there were a resurrection myth in freemasonry, then indeed the accusation by many of the anti-masons that we're some sort of "religious cult" would be much better-founded, and most masons holding fairly ordinary religious beliefs (i.e. most of the membership, specifically including the Christians) would have to resign from the Craft because it'd be incompatible with their religion. That would destroy the Craft pretty instantly, so thank goodness it's completely false. H.G.W., Huw
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Post by billmcelligott on Sept 26, 2011 20:26:03 GMT
Matt, no one is or will be aloud to silence anyone.
We have said it many times now all are allowed their views and opinions.
No post have been changed or altered by the Mods. No memeber has ever been banned from this forum for just having a different opinion.
My opinion is that Huw would not wish to silence anyone, he would have to give up his gigantic posts.
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Post by sid on Sept 26, 2011 22:56:38 GMT
those wishing further light on the subject of the Tarot may wish to have a look at the book called 'meditations on the tarot' by valentin tomberg
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frater209
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Post by frater209 on Sept 27, 2011 10:12:57 GMT
"I know, but he implied there was some sort of "pan-pagan" religion in his choice of wording. Each culture, and tribal divisions within a culture, had their own local Gods and Goddesses, land spirits, etc. So to say There was A Gentile/Pagan religion is incorrect." I see now just what you meant, Anubis, and I agree with you. Matt, I am glad that you brought up the concept of duality and some of its various representations within Masonry, for it is one of the "Baphometic" qualities I wished to discuss. The figure of Baphomet is clearly partly human, partly beast. We know no such creature exists in nature, but I think there are at least two reasons Baphomet is represented in this fashion. One is to serve as a reminder that even we human's are beasts. We are every bit as "animal" as the goats I ride behind my house. Just smarter, and with different anatomy. The second reason for representing the figure this way, I think, stems quite naturally from the first, and is to point out the duality between what we might term our higher and lower (or "earthy") natures. When speaking in terms of the microcosm, and applying the classic elements to the cardinal directions, earth has long been associated with the north. It is no coincidence that the figure of Baphomet stirs up such strong emotions and even sometimes repulses people. After all, he demonstrates all the characteristics Masons have assigned to "a place of darkness." Erect penis. Ample bosom. Horns and hoofs! It could be that all these things symbolize the "passions" Masonry tells us to subdue, the parts of our nature classically associated with the element of earth. (How better to symbolically subdue them?! Out of sight out of mind). He is animal and he owns his animalness ( <-- new word) unashamedly. But he is more than "mereley" animal. There is a flame shooting out of his head for goodness' sake! This is intense stuff. I've referred to this flame as the divine aspiration, present in all of us, yearning towards heaven. Levi has called it the flame of intelligence, representing Light and balance, two Masonic ideals. Then there is the upright pentagram, on his forhead/third eye/ajna chakra, representing the harmonic supremacy of spirit over matter, and possibly hinting at some initiatic implications of such a harmonic balance. So to summarize what we have thus far in my examination of Baphomet: We have a passionate animal living in earth, with a god given intelligence creating in it a drive for divine harmony. When we are able to get over our fears and misconceptions we see that Baphomet is sounding more and more like a man. Every man. And every woman. We are Baphomet, prepared by God for initiation. If this is what Baphomet teaches us about mankind, what then does he teach us about initiation? In my opinion there are, very generally speaking, two methods of spiritual attainment. Some terms used to describe them are Right Hand Path and Left Hand Path. IMO, the RHP is characterized by what may be generally termed an ascetic approach and has been associated with, for instance, the Osirian mysteries and modern religions like Christianity. Left Hand Path approaches are characterized more by hedonism than asceticism, and have been associated with, for example, the rites of Bacchus. It is my humble opinion that Freemaonry unreservedly promotes a decidedly RHP version of initiation. (I've written an essay for my lodge on this very subject, which I have attached to this post in case you're interested.) And, despite his arguably macabre appearance, and despite what I consider to be misrepresentations of his meanings, I believe Baphomet, too, symbolizes a RHP approach to spiritual initiation. Lets look again at the pentagram. Now, an inverted pentagram, as Bill has mentioned, was said by Levi to represent the triumph of matter over spirit. Some left hand path initiates would suggest that this interpretation is immature or at least incomplete. They may say that the inverted pentagram represents something like the spirit realized, and fully actualized, right here and now among matter. An initiation of this sort might result in what some have termed "self deification." I'm saying all this this to draw the distinction between the two approaches and to point out that it is a matter of perspective and focus. LHP schools are going to focus on spirit in the microcosm, and on "drawing down" this spirits supremacy into the denser vibrations of matter. RHP schools, like Masonry, focus on spirit in the macrocosm, and on elevating the base matter to the "higher" levels of divine vibration. This is a part of what the flame shooting from Baphomet's head means, I think, and it is a part of what the upright pentagram represents. The Baphomet pictured by Levi is not an animal trying to become God. It is an animal trying to get close to God. It is not an animal trying to use matter to control and determine its spiritual aspect, but one trying to "channel" and allow its spiritual aspect to control and determine its material being. Considering Baphomets symbolism in this way it is no surprise that the candidate for Freemasonry is stopped in the direct north, still blinded by earthly passions, and it is here where he first invokes deity. As Masons we are taught to invoke the aid of deity before any great undertaking, and this too speaks to the nature of the initiation presented by Masonry. For as those with knowledge in classical magic are aware, you invoke what is spiritually "higher" or superior to you, that which is more pure on the scale of emanating divinity, and NOT anything which is spiritually impure. There is even legend of a Mystic beam of Light, sent from God, into the Great Light of Freemasonry, and from there to the WM, and from which, and only due to God's providence, he (the WM) derives the authority he exercises in the Lodge. Everything about Masonic initiation and ritual is about the triumph of spirit over matter, and the elevation of matter to a more purely divine level of being. And all of the Baphomet symbolism is too. We have already mentioned the alchemical import of the formula written on Baphomet's arms, solve et coagula. What I would now like to discuss isn't exactly the significance of this formula to Masonry, but the specific way in which the formula is introduced in the Baphomet symbol, which will further show his specific Masonic import. Matt mentioned having never considered Baphomet as much as he has since this thread started, and I am willing to bet that goes for about all of us! I certainly never thought of this until just now, but consider the arms on which each part of the formula are written. If I'm not mistaken the "solve" is on this arm which he points upwards. The "coagula" is, then, on the arm which he points downward. Now I admit to having never stuied alchemy in any depth whatsoever, but the solve, as I understand it, is the breaking down of the old and imperfect, the nigredo, the demolition and preparatory phase for the building of the spiritual temple. The coagula is the reforming of the parts, the actual building phase, when the temple comes to perfection (or as near to perfection as we are able to build it). Masonry teaches us that the spiritual journey, the initiation, the building of our temples, is Work. It is not something which God will simply do for us, without any effort on our part - otherwise we wouldn't need any tools. No, the Work of Freemasonry is something we participate in, working with our tools, under the guidance of and with the assistance of God. (There is that darned pentagram again!) Could the fact that Baphomets solve arm points towards the heavenly realms and the coagula one points towards the earthly realms hint as to the nature of this alchemical work? That perhaps we knock on the door, God prepares us with the solve, we receive the tools we need to further perfect His work in the material realm (the coagula), under the guidance of the spirit? Because of these and many other speculations I feel that Baphomet is not only a perfect symbol of the human being, but of initiation in general, and of Masonic initiation specifically. I feel a dialogue about the astrological symbol typically associated with Baphomet, Capricorn, and of the Hebrew letter associated with the 15th path, Ayin, along with (of course) their several implications for freemasonic initiation may also prove fruitful. Initially I had intended to study a great deal for this post so that I could cite considerable sources and therefore avoid being accused of being anti-mason. Instead I have created this post over the course of an 8 hour work shift, when I could get a minute here and there to dedicate to it. I'm actually glad it worked out this way because, well, this is a discussion forum and what I have done is discuss my ideas rather than attempt to present facts. Plus, I care little to none for what anti-masons have to say, and I have decided that I shall regard even less those who would accuse me of being one. ---Fr. 209
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frater209
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Post by frater209 on Sept 27, 2011 10:16:52 GMT
I forgot to attach the essay I mentioned so I've attached it here. Thank you. --Fr. 209 Attachments:
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Post by huw on Sept 27, 2011 15:27:19 GMT
Hi All.
I'll return to this topic, but I'm travelling overseas for the next few days, so I probably won't have time to respond until I'm back home.
H.G.W.,
Huw
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frater209
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Post by frater209 on Oct 2, 2011 4:42:16 GMT
"It's not hard for me to consider the flame burning above Baphomet's head in relationship to an active life force moving through the evergreen" Not to mention his erection denoting virility and fertility, which further strengthens his connection to the sprig of acacia. Another parallel, I think, is the idea of using the lower to feed the higher, so to speak. Consider that the acacia is growing out of the fecundity produced by a corpse, the earthly remains of the aspirant. I have shown how much of Baphomet's symbolism refers to his passionate nature. Yet he clearly signifies much higher spiritual aims than the earthly. You might say that it is the fuel of his passions which adds to the flame of his aspiration, much like the decomposition of the corpse produces the fuel which enables the growth of the evergreen. In Freemasonry, we are taught to subdue our passions and put them in due bounds. That is the reason, we are taught, for entering the Craft, and is clearly denoted as a prerequisite for "Masonic improvement." This represents in my mind a sublimation of the baser elements of one's self and a consecrating of these passions, the raw energy of which is transmuted into spiritual fervor. This is an integral initiatic formula within Freemasonry and inherent in Baphomet's symbolism as well. --Fr. 209
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frater209
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Post by frater209 on Oct 2, 2011 6:22:16 GMT
I am going to go ahead and reevaluate some of what I just said. I think in my eagerness to show Baphomet's further Masonic significance I may have overlooked a small detail.
At this point I'm just thinking out loud, so thanks to this forum for providing that opportunity, and do feel free to add further insight/criticism (constructive preferred) anytime.
I do feel that Freemasonry and Baphomet represent the essentials of a formula I have referred to as using the lower to feed the higher. But it may well be argued that they also represent two distinct practical approaches to this formula. Freemasonry representing, as I said, a sublimation of the passions into divine fervour, Baphomet representing rather an elevation of the passions to divine fervour.
The fertilization of the acacia is produced by the death and decay of Hiram's earthly remains. Baphomet's earthly vehicle is very much alive and bursting forth with virility. Both are harnessing the passions to fuel their aspiration, only harnessing them in a different way. So while Baphomet isn't necessarily the perfect glyph for Masonic initiation, he still has Masonic significance for reasons listed above (i.e. the essence of feeding the higher with the lower) and elsewhere.
I think that Baphomet may more perfectly represent the prepared candidate, but that along the lines I am pursuing ATM, Osiris and of course Hiram are more representative of the process of initiation suggested by Freemaonry.
Consider that, unlike Baphomet, whose member is still standing for roll call, Osiris' phallus was removed. This is more in line with the dead or dying earthly remains of Hiram fertilizing the acacia.
--- Fr. 209
P.S.-- I'm sure many of you have heard this little joke: What were Osiris' last words to Isis? "Re-member me always!"
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Post by fractal3rd on Oct 4, 2011 7:23:44 GMT
Hey hi Mat,
lol, don't apologise for your point of view - thats okay... I was reading the responses when I could - its good to think out the box. But I guess for me who is still stuck on logic and reason and has yet to move to the higher astral planes, I think, if masonry is older than Baphomet - which we have kinda established; and the codex gigas is younger than all the above mentioned this must imply that Masonry's secret was independent of Baphomet or gigas - dare I say it, alot has been added onto masonry - as a LDH member, I can't imagine that ALL we do was all part of the ancient masonic ritual (yes woman were not part of the ancient ritual either I know)... some of it was added with whatever intention - so, I think the concept of Baphomet could be added - but I don't think it belongs in ancient Freemasonry. Since, I adore the path of least resistance then meditating on Baphomet should add to what the ancient Masons taught - no elaborate rituals just allagorical truth that any true seeker would find in plain view - now we have over thought the path of least resistance to the point where even the true seeker is well and truely lead astray...why?
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 5, 2011 11:44:41 GMT
Goat Rider, may I just say that I do not agree with your 'point within a circle' analogy.
I do not see why the reading of the various posts would draw one to a conclusion that Matt is not a worthy Mason, I just do not see it.
Having said that each will read a different web of thought and I would like to apologise if anything I have said has given offence. I will speak for Huw as he is away sailing the high seas or something. I have never witnessed him purposely offend anyone.
We have a number of long standing Freemasons who administer and Moderate this forum and they are here everyday I think they do a decent job. Not always an easy job. But they deserve the trust that they will keep comments in line, knowing when to stop someone and sometimes make a minor incident worse is not so easy.
I would refer you back to my post
I personally appreciate a strong minded person and I listen and take on board, don't have to agree but I listen. That is what we must all do
With regard to the symbolism of the Baphomet, i have heard the argument that it has a variety of symbolic meanings, but we can not escape that the vast majority of the public receive it as a symbol of evil. We can make the same argument in defence of the Swastika, if placed upright etc. Indeed at one point the basic symbol was used by the Guild of Masons, but from 1936 it was dropped like a hot brick. Common sense intervened.
my reply is just plain common sense , I would not like to see Freemasonry in any way associated with the Baphomet.
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 5, 2011 18:22:26 GMT
I have particularly enjoyed this thread, there is another thread on The Masonic Society Forum which is also exceptionally interesting which is also causing a lot of heat as well as light! however I digress!
Brother Goat Rider it is always good to see that you are still honouring us with your presence, I understand a lot of what you are writing however I personally believe Brother Matt, Fractal and Frater 309 have all been exceptional in thier conduct and the way they have presented thier points of view. I would quickly add all the very best discussions arise out of major differences it is those differences that make this a wonderful topic. I do not speak for Huw but I have known him a long time and he has very distinct views I sometimes do not agree with his particular style but I am equally sure he does not always agree with mine. As a moderator here on this topic I have been tempted to step in a couple of times but I have always been inpressed with the way our members have handled certain criticism and ultimately have felt it uneccessary.
Hi Bill
Your thoughts on The Baphomet remind me of a deep discussion we had on the use of the word occult within Freemasonry! However I would like to discuss The Swastika.
It is a complete myth there is a right way and a wrong way for the Swastika to be standing (left facing or right facing!)
The Swastika is also called The Fylfot Cross and is an emblem of extreme antiquity, it is most unfortunate that the Nazis adopted it for thier use, however! It has been found in Countries as far apart as India and Scandinavia. It is The Cross of The Jains of India and most probably easier remembered as The Hammer of Thor in Scandinavian Myths. Within The SRIA it is considered one of The Crosses of The Four Elements.
It invokes absolutely no evil symbolism within The Colleges where The SRIA practice thier rituals.
The Baphomet can be many things to many people, I personally do not give any thought to the general public when it comes to Freemasonry, I have given up on the majority of people who use the tabloid newspapers for thier guide through life. Is it any surprise people think certain things when all they do is read The Sun, The Mirror, The Star etc etc etc. I know other feel more strongly about this but I myself care for the opinion of people who have gone through what I have far more than a cash hungry journalist
This whole topic is considering the different symbolism of The Baphomet. One (the majority no doubt) view is that it is a symbol of evil. I personally am enjoying the other interpretations and discussions invoked by those interpretations. It means nothing to me whether I agree with them or not. I just enjoy the discussion!
Thank you!
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Post by matt on Oct 5, 2011 20:34:37 GMT
Hey hi Mat, lol, don't apologise for your point of view - thats okay Hello I wasn't apologizing for my point of view as much as my tone when dealing with brothers. I stand by my point of view It's human nature to want the less resistant path, but the perfecting of the ashlar requires much grinding down and in many cases a lot of meeting with resistance. I'd say that the path of initiation is rarely, if ever, one of least resistance. It's a rough and rugged road and a journey in which life has been lost. Anytime transformation occurs, there is usually quite a bit of resistance. It could be said that the resistance is what causes the transformation. I'm not quite sure what you mean by being led astray, perhaps you'd like to elaborate. It seems that the only way someone can lead you astray is if you rely on them to interpret meaning for you. "Masonry does not expound the truths concealed in her emblems. It displays the symbol and may give a hint here and there concerning some characteristics of it's several meanings, but it must remain for the Neophite to search out for himself its more hidden significations." - Texas Monitor
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 5, 2011 22:12:04 GMT
There is a much stronger case for linking the swastika to Freemasonry from the simple construct of it as 4 x Squares. Wiki images Plenty of info here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwastikaThe style used by the Operative Masons prior to 1936 or so was As you say it has been found all over the world used by many civilizations. Why ? well I would suggest it is one of those natural shapes which give the illusion of symmetry and stability, just four carpenters squares. It is visually very strong. However because of its association with Nazi's it is now seen as a symbol of evil. Now we could say that that does not matter and the general public has no right to make it a symbol of evil. But actual facts are facts, just have to try putting a logo of the Swastika on your business card , lets see how that works for everyone, we can explain, it is not a symbol of evil. So it should work out just fine. Maybe a fertility clinic with a Baphomet over the front door ? My view is that Freemasonry is a part of the real world and not separate from it. Others may have their opinion, I am happy with mine.
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Post by middlepillar on Oct 5, 2011 22:50:25 GMT
Bill
It is the red and white background that makes it so recognisable as The Nazi Swastika, take away the colour and it does not have the same effect.
We will always disagree on the publics view of us, I dont give much attention to it, they can think what they like, ignorance in my mind is inexcusable and can be remedied by research (if one is bothered)
I know how good it is to be a member if others who are not cannot be bothered to gain that knowledge and yet still have the termerity to attack us then so be it, I will never lose sleep over it. Ignorance is bliss, let them be blissfully unaware.
However no one should be afraid to explore any symbolism no matter what they believe the symbol means, there are so many interpretations.
I do not agree that we should worry about what the outside world thinks, it does not mean I do not believe that we are not part of that world! I believe it is one of the main reasons Freemasonry has lost some of its mysticism too much appeasement is not good (IMHO)
If you can only see evil in the symbol of The Baphomet that is entirely your prerogative, just like it is someone else's to see another interpretation. That is simply what is being discussed, that and the possibillity that at some time maybe this symbol may of been used in connection with Freemasonry.
It is easy to become emotive in discussions but going back to your two photos if you had put both crosses with a white and red background most people would relate them to the Nazis, if you just had them say in orange next to each other you could of easily been discussing Fylfot crosses and thier meaning with no emotive reactions at all.
If you remember The Pink Floyd Film of The Wall, The Marching Hammers were red, black and white, instantly recognised as a Fascist piece of symbolism, you didnt need to know the lyrics recognisable straight away as Fascist or Nazi. Take the colour away just marching hammers!
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Post by fractal3rd on Oct 6, 2011 6:10:40 GMT
Morning Matt, and everyone it’s a glorious day here in SA, and on the discussion board. Yes agree, that masonry has its own traditions and understanding - and should not change who and what it is for the whims of others who scarcely understand it. But having said that, Baphomet could never have been part of original masonry - why change masonry by adding to it what obviously is a controversial topic even amongst us masons. If we cannot agree on it and it was never part of the original Masonic design/tradition (even if it does add to masonry on an esoteric level to some) why try to defend it? (Genuine question not a pointing of fingers). The path of least resistance I speak of - does not mean no resistance - just the path our ancient Masonic bros walked - without adding or taking away, we should be able move from rough ashlars to perfected ones as well. While baphomet is a great subject to chat about over coffee or in a board like so, I don't know about in a lodge? Maybe it can have its place in a well moderated discussion at lodge I don't know... but why bring it up, there have been master masons, even 33rd degree ones, who understood the astral plane and alchemy without Baphomet to meditate upon in the past. Just remember religion evolved to the war machine it is, because people kept adding to it and taking away – if it remained pure we all would have a collective understanding of T.G.A.O.T.U. My opinion of Masonry is to keep it pure and stop adding stuff that wasn’t there to begin with. (With the exception of the evolution of scientific understanding that is). As an end and I shall probably not say anymore on this topic… while ‘x’ is the variable, the mathematical principals acting on it are constant. Let x be our ‘initiate’ (variable) and let mathematics represent the Masonic principals – I am happy that Baphomet is part of ‘x’s’ set of values and not Masonic principal… does that make sense?
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 6, 2011 8:50:41 GMT
Bill It is the red and white background that makes it so recognisable as The Nazi Swastika, take away the colour and it does not have the same effect. I can not agree that the Nazi sign is only recognisable on a red background. The symbol is associated with what was done I just don't see the red has much significance. Like it or not we live in a world that has views and opinions some of which we might not like to follow, however we are not the Majority. If we as a group do not pay attention to the wider world is that not arrogance ? OK , you line up all the people who see the Baphomet as a symbol for goos on the left, I will line up all the people who see it as evil on the right - bet my gang is a lot bigger than your gang. Sorry , just do not agree, most people have never heard of anything other than it is the symbol for the Nazi Party. red, blue , green it makes no difference. I will challenge you then right now, go out into the street and ask the first five people what is Flyfot ?? answers on a postcard to .....
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