commiegirl
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Post by commiegirl on Aug 18, 2012 3:55:16 GMT
As a dire hard Socialist, the most interesting part of Freemasonry for me is it's deeply Socialist message. All equal, no class nor caste. Of course, the gender exclusion is nonsense but that is mainly a relic of a patriarchal age.
Anyway, it was just on my mind.
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Post by matt on Aug 18, 2012 5:14:09 GMT
It's all about how many titles you can get. The more pins you have on your vest, the more you can bully people around. but you have to work hard, kiss a lot of ass, and play the right political games to move up. pfff, all equal, hell.
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Alberich
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Post by Alberich on Aug 22, 2012 0:34:43 GMT
As a dire hard Socialist, the most interesting part of Freemasonry for me is it's deeply Socialist message. All equal, no class nor caste. Of course, the gender exclusion is nonsense but that is mainly a relic of a patriarchal age. Anyway, it was just on my mind. There are different classes. Some push rocks; some draw the plans; some fling poo into the quarry; some stay home; some make the coffee; some wear pins; some don't; some start weird witch hunts, and some just laugh. Where I'm at, we're not allowed to talk about Socialism or other politics. I never knew there is a deeply Socialist message.
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commiegirl
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Post by commiegirl on Aug 24, 2012 18:47:28 GMT
While it took American women 144 years to be citizens of their own country, Soviet women were an equal part of society from day one.
The Jacobins were very influential in Freemasonry and they were also radical Leftists influential on Marx and Engels.
Freemasonry has always been associated with the Left Wing, that is except for in the American South were the Left was replaces by Christian Apologetics and the Klan
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Post by freemasonpride on Aug 25, 2012 4:23:19 GMT
Freemasonry in soviet/communist Russia was treated pretty much the same as it was in Nazi Germany, with suspicion and fear. If you were a Freemason, you didn't tell anyone. Freemasonry sows the seeds of democracy, as it did in colonial America. These principals are not good for a socialist regime....
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commiegirl
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Post by commiegirl on Aug 27, 2012 0:13:59 GMT
Meting on the level, acting by the plumb and parting on the square is a Socialist concept.
I stated Jacobins, not Jacobites. The Jacobins were far Left revolutionaries. Baubef and other influential Socialists were Freemasons and they influenced Marx.
Marx being a lazabout is anti-Marx propaganda. Marx is arguably the most influential philosopher since Plato. He was never inactive , in fact Das Kapital is widely regarded as the most important book every written.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 27, 2012 1:53:48 GMT
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Post by 345 on Aug 27, 2012 21:05:21 GMT
Aaaand this is why politics is forbidden in our lodges.
Though, having said that and since the gates of hell have been flung open, I might as well throw my fuel on the fire...
The first comment to make is that socialism is not communism, and along side that it is a regrettable tendency for many Americans not to understand the difference. It often comes as a surprise that the overwhelming majority of industrialised, Western nations have been profoundly influenced by 'Socialist' notions for the majority of the 20th Century. Principles such as the 40 hour week, free universal health care, automatic pension rights and livable unemployment relief formed the mainstay of European social and political consciousness, irrespective of whether the Right or the Left were in power.
The second comment is that Socialism and Freemasonry do indeed share many principles. The notion of the essential dignity of man is a core component of both camps, along with the obligation of clothing thy neighbour and feeding him if he hungers. The main difference being that Socialism approaches this through social and legal activism whereas Freemasonry preaches to a small and largely insular community. Socialism makes it the responsibility of the State and Freemasonry the individual. However, the same principles of brotherly love and relief are shared by a number of political, religious and philosophic systems and while there is a definite overlap in these particular values, I don't think too much can be made of it.
My third comment is that Freemasonry has not, by any stretch of the imagination, been largely associated with the Left. Yes, many of the smaller European Grand Orients and Grand Lodges to take a strong humanist stance, but lets be honest- the bigger, more important Grand Lodges are populated by men who mainly have a particular attachment to the current, capitalist, system. Having experienced Freemasonry on four continents, its not a hotbed of Socialist reform.
A fourth is that Anubis said "The fact is that wealth is created, and the economy can expand correspondingly. I suggest you get your head out of Marxist propaganda and study real economics". There is nothing in Socialist economic thought which says the economy can not expand, and in fact an expanding economy is a critical element of universal beneficence. Perhaps you could take your own advice and brush up a little more on genuine socialist economic theory rather than subscribing to a generic and demonised misunderstanding of it.
It is also lamentable that, given American propensities for concern for human rights, democracy and equality, most Americans, like yourself, Anubis, seem blind to the fact that Socialism arose out of those very same concerns and do, in fact, have a mainstream role to play in a civilised nation. Socialism does not equal tyranny, as even a quick reference to the political and economic history of 20th Cent. UK, Ireland, Holland, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand and many other counties who have impeccable capitalist (and Masonic) credentials can attest.
And just to put a little perspective on my comments, I am not a leftist at all. However, back in the day I did my Masters degree on the intersection of the extreme right and the extreme left, which has left me with little patience for some lines of conversation.
Fraternally Peter Gower
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commiegirl
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Post by commiegirl on Aug 28, 2012 1:34:42 GMT
Socialism is an intermediate stage on the path to Communism. Communism, as a classless stateless society has yet to be achieved. When achieved however it will mark the Apex of human achievement.
Freemasonry is also called "the progressive science." what's more progressive than total emancipation?
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Post by rembrandt on Aug 28, 2012 2:43:57 GMT
Socialism has nothing to do with the dignity of the individual. If it did then individuals would matter and those differences between individuals would matter. Total emancipation cannot happen in a system in which "society" is the basic unit and the individual only an interchangable part.
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Post by 345 on Aug 28, 2012 4:04:48 GMT
And what are you doing, seeing the world passing by?I asked German Masons what they do against Neonazis, the answer is we are working on our own rough ashlar. Yeah great, work on and do not open the door. it is only a bloody excuse of not to take any position, to hide in a corner, to enjoy a lodge meeting, driving home to the beautiful bungalow and forget the rest of the world. Oh, I think I do my bit to nudge the world towards being a better place, but WTF? Where did that come from? Don't you think its rather presumptuous, not to say irrational, to make any suggestions about the level my socio-political involvement when you don't have the foggiest clue who I am and what I do? As for using Freemasonry as a political vehicle, well, I suppose whatever floats your boat, but personally I don't see Freemasonry as a particularly good vehicle for social and political reform. If you are concerned about the neo-Nazis, join an anti-fascist league. If you are concerned about workers rights, join a trade union. If you are concerned about environmental issues, join Greenpeace. If you are concerned about poverty, volunteer at a night shelter. They are far more efficient as vehicles of social change than Freemasonry can ever be. Join those groups as a Freemason if you will, but trying to make Freemasonry a one-size-fits-all political vehicle probably says more about a persons lack of political commitment than otherwise. In short, join an organisation which gets its hands dirty rather than simply philosophise and pontificate about the rights of man and throws money at problems. Furthermore, effecting change is not always about manning the barricades. /P.G.
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Post by 345 on Aug 28, 2012 4:36:46 GMT
Socialism is an intermediate stage on the path to Communism. Communism, as a classless stateless society has yet to be achieved. When achieved however it will mark the Apex of human achievement. Freemasonry is also called "the progressive science." what's more progressive than total emancipation? This is why I drew the line at dealing with Socialism and did not bring Communism into the discussion. I can not see a world in which the Communist rose-tinted view of humanity can ever come to pass. Humanity is simply not built that way. Which reminds me of an old joke: whats the difference between a radical and a reactionary? 20 years. That is a quote out of context. By 'progressive science', Freemasonry refers to itself as making its members progress through a series of classes degrees before full membership. It does not mean progressive in the sense you are wanting it to mean. /P.G.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 28, 2012 9:29:08 GMT
Socialism is an intermediate stage on the path to Communism. That is one theory. However, it is not seen in practice. Socialism typically reaches a relatively stable point where social discontentment is contained. The welfare states of western Europe were not politically divisive. They were socially re-dis- tributive in general intent (some more than others) but not at all revolutionary—they did not ‘soak the rich’. On the contrary: although the greatest immediate advantage was felt by the poor, the real long-term beneficiaries were the professional and commercial middle class. In many cases they had not previously been eligible for work-related health, unemployment or retirement benefits and had been obliged, before the war, to purchase such services and benefits from the private sector. Now they had full access to them, either free or at low cost. Taken with the state provision of free or subsidized secondary and higher education for their children, this left the salaried professional and white-collar classes with both a better quality of life and more dispos- able income. Far from dividing the social classes against each other, the European welfare state bound them closer together than ever before, with a common interest in its preservation and defense
Tony Judt, FBA
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 28, 2012 9:39:46 GMT
Socialism has nothing to do with the dignity of the individual. If it did then individuals would matter and those differences between individuals would matter. Total emancipation cannot happen in a system in which "society" is the basic unit and the individual only an interchangable part. While Socialism is community focused as opposed to individualist opportunism I feel it's a misrepresentation to claim socialism places no value on the individual. What greater value than absolute equality?Hi Commiegirl, The statement was just a bit of Objectivist Rand Speak (ironically the original quote referred to the "persecution" of big business and argued against anti-trust laws).
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Alberich
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Post by Alberich on Aug 28, 2012 13:52:36 GMT
Oh, I think I do my bit to nudge the world towards being a better place, but WTF? Where did that come from? Don't you think its rather presumptuous, not to say irrational, to make any suggestions about the level my socio-political involvement when you don't have the foggiest clue who I am and what I do? As for using Freemasonry as a political vehicle, well, I suppose whatever floats your boat, but personally I don't see Freemasonry as a particularly good vehicle for social and political reform. Nice post, Brother. This entire thread is coming somewhat from left field. Indeed -- many seek to use our Craft as a bully club to smash others. The author of the OP is using it right now to support her political opinions. However, the work of Freemasonry begins with the individual, and although everyone who enters the Craft shares the same opportunities to apply its tenets to begin improving themselves and to grow, not everyone is starting from the same point (we are all different, not equal in that regard!), nor does everyone share the same capacity to grow. I will also point out further flaws in the notion that "we are all equal": because there is no "universal" interpretation regarding the various symbols of Masonry, nor how they ought to be used, each Mason does their work (or not!) differently. Indeed, Freemasonry has a "pecking order". When I enter a Chapter, I sign my name, and there is another column for my masonic "rank". Everybody lines up, walks into the invisible temple according to their order in the peck, and then go to the front to shake hands. Finally, the head dude comes in and gives a speech; they say how great everything is, how wonderful we are, and then we go eat cold beans and after telling some dirty jokes, we go home. Further, there are many different types of titles, and though many have esoteric phonetic allusions, if we were all "equal" then there would be no need for "ranks"or "titles" by which distinctions are made. And, it has been this way in the Craft, across many different masonic obediences, for a very long time. Thus, this notion that the Craft somehow promotes "equality" among its members is a fantasy. Also fantastic is the statement branding or associating the Craft as being somehow "left wing". I know many Masons from all across the United States; most are right-wing conservative Republics (though certainly not exclusively!). I know many who are left-wing Democrats; I know some who are Libertarian. And, there is a growing movement of conservative, Authoritarian and extremely neo-Orthodox "esoteric Masons" who are intent on wearing uniforms, seeking out invitational orders, expelling other Masons "in large numbers", and who seek to "restore the Craft" in what they believe to be a return to its "roots". They seek to hunt down all of the brown M&Ms, and believe that the "Webb and Preston" work is the be-all and end-all of our Craft. Since they don't read books, and are unfamiliar with Masonic work done in other countries or other cultures except for their own, much less the rich heritage of Masonry as well as its depth and rich variety -- how does that word equate to being "equal"? -- they insist on viewing Masonry through a lens that has become increasingly distorted and sadly, skewed. Yes, they are all about making Masonry uniform, but if you somehow don't fit into what they want, or disagree, then you will be character-assassinated and even persecuted. They will say your brain-pan is broken (didn't the Soviet and Chinese regimes put their political opponents into mental institutions just like the United States is now doing to those who are brave dumb enough to speak out publicly?). I know -- I've seen it happen and am watching it happen right now. They want everything to "be the same" but I can guarantee that it is a little different from Karl Marx and this idea of leftist "equality". Other than the narrow-mindedness and the uniforms that purport to make this movement "equal", I believe you'll find that behind all the so-called alchemical huffing and puffing that there is another agenda run by the Unknown and Invisible Secret Chiefs. (btw, there are always Secret Chiefs, whether you're talking Communism or Rastafarianism). Some say that the agenda is to turn all Masonic temples into Islamic Mosques. The Irish Mason brought up neo-Nazis, so since he brought up that particular ideology, I thought I would point out some similarities between the current cult-like obsession with all-things-esoteric and the Thule Society, another esoteric group that similarly sought the Holy Grail and the Spear. They also wore uniforms and persecuted others whom disagreed with them. Similar to the Communist Crusade, they carried a mantle in which the end always justified the means. Then -- as now -- it allows people of high rank to avoid self-censure, rationality, and justify their conduct, all in the name of ___________ (insert your favorite group here). But hey, what does a Rosicrucian Super-Secret High Priest like me know about manifestos, idiotic "group think" and predictable cult behavior? All I know is how to pound rocks with a big cudgel and work on my personal essler. That's why I'm a troll. I live deep down inside the earth where nobody can find me. In Nibelheim.
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commiegirl
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Post by commiegirl on Aug 28, 2012 18:09:54 GMT
I don't have much time to respond, Ayn Rand has as much credibility as L. Ron Hubbard.
Some of you might want to look up the Capitalism Death Toll Project. Education is key in the age of global empire.
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 28, 2012 20:52:55 GMT
Thus, this notion that the Craft somehow promotes "equality" among its members is a fantasy. We meet upon the level and we part upon the square These words have precious meaning and are practiced everywhere Come let us contemplate them, they are worthy of a thought From the ancient times of Masonry these symbols have been taught We meet upon the level, every country, sect and creed The rich man from his mansion, the poor man from the field For wealth is not considered within our outer door And we all meet on the level upon the chequered floor
Bro. Rob Morris
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commiegirl
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From each according to their wants to each according to their needs.
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Post by commiegirl on Aug 29, 2012 20:32:26 GMT
China isn't communist, is it classless and stateless? No. Some could make the argument it was Socialist prior to the GLF in 1959, but never in the way Marx would have defined it.
It's pretty clear that some here never read Kapital. I understand as it's a huge task, but you can't grasp Communism without it.
On another note. Freemasonry and it's egalitarian socialist principles fit together nicely with Marxism. Objectivism (being generous here as no one considers it an actual philosophy) is totally at odds with it. Rand's whole "theory" (again being generous) is everyone is bad, everyone is selfish so be the worst. It's inhumaine .
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 29, 2012 21:13:51 GMT
Thus, this notion that the Craft somehow promotes "equality" among its members is a fantasy. We meet upon the level and we part upon the square These words have precious meaning and are practiced everywhere Come let us contemplate them, they are worthy of a thought From the ancient times of Masonry these symbols have been taught We meet upon the level, every country, sect and creed The rich man from his mansion, the poor man from the field For wealth is not considered within our outer door And we all meet on the level upon the chequered floor
Bro. Rob Morris The Mother-LodgeBy Rudyard Kipling There was Rundle, Station Master, An' Beazeley of the Rail, An' 'Ackman, Commissariat, An' Donkin' o' the Jail; An' Blake, Conductor-Sargent, Our Master twice was 'e, With 'im that kept the Europe-shop, Old Framjee Eduljee.
Outside -- "Sergeant! Sir! Salute! Salaam!" Inside -- "Brother", an' it doesn't do no 'arm. We met upon the Level an' we parted on the Square, An' I was Junior Deacon in my Mother-Lodge out there!
We'd Bola Nath, Accountant, An' Saul the Aden Jew, An' Din Mohammed, draughtsman Of the Survey Office too; There was Babu Chuckerbutty, An' Amir Singh the Sikh, An' Castro from the fittin'-sheds, The Roman Catholick!
We 'adn't good regalia, An' our Lodge was old an' bare, But we knew the Ancient Landmarks, An' we kep' 'em to a hair; An' lookin' on it backwards It often strikes me thus, There ain't such things as infidels, Excep', per'aps, it's us.
For monthly, after Labour, We'd all sit down and smoke (We dursn't give no banquits, Lest a Brother's caste were broke), An' man on man got talkin' Religion an' the rest, An' every man comparin' Of the God 'e knew the best.
So man on man got talkin', An' not a Brother stirred Till mornin' waked the parrots An' that dam' brain-fever-bird; We'd say 'twas 'ighly curious, An' we'd all ride 'ome to bed, With Mo'ammed, God, an' Shiva Changin' pickets in our 'ead.
Full oft on Guv'ment service This rovin' foot 'ath pressed, An' bore fraternal greetin's To the Lodges east an' west, Accordin' as commanded From Kohat to Singapore, But I wish that I might see them In my Mother-Lodge once more!
I wish that I might see them, My Brethren black an' brown, With the trichies smellin' pleasant An' the hog-darn passin' down; An' the old khansamah snorin' On the bottle-khana floor, Like a Master in good standing With my Mother-Lodge once more!
Outside -- "Sergeant! Sir! Salute! Salaam!" Inside -- "Brother", an' it doesn't do no 'arm. We met upon the Level an' we parted on the Square, An' I was Junior Deacon in my Mother-Lodge out there!
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 30, 2012 4:30:49 GMT
Thus, this notion that the Craft somehow promotes "equality" among its members is a fantasy. If we remain grotesquely unequal, we shall lose all sense of fraternity: and fraternity, for all its fatuity as a political objective, turns out to be the necessary condition of politics itself
Tony Judt
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