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Post by pangeansage on Jan 21, 2013 6:05:02 GMT
I would like to know just why Atheists and Women aren't allowed to become Freemasons. It seems highly prejudicial, of course seeing as the society was formed hundreds of years ago it's not hard to figure out where this prejudice may have stemmed from. I've read that it derives it's support from the text of an old grand master. Who called atheists stupid, a clear sign of his own misunderstanding on what atheism is. Which is simply the lack of belief in a god.
Now I've also heard of the escape clause or something along those lines, where if you are asked if you believe in a god all you have to say is yes and it won't be pressed further. However, I also know that one of the virtues of freemasonry are supposed to be truth, and it seems rather unfair to compromise a person's integrity just for his religious belief/disbelief. It would then also mean that the Freemasons are not at all tolerant to such differing of philosophical opinions. And that's not including incidents that may involve pagans, muslims, or other theists who do not conform to the judeo-christian one.
As for women, it's hard to believe that a person could espouse equality and then just reserve it for men and theists. Clearly it would seem that everyone is not equal but rather you must be of a certain gender and a certain religious belief in order to join. So by that you automatically lose half the population on the women's part and possibly around 10-40% on the religious side for males. If I remember correctly the statistics for atheists in the US was 20% and the statistics for atheists in the UK was 80%. I simply divided by half assuming it would be about equal among the genders.
At this rate the Grand Orient of France will likely outgrow and outlive the Freemasons of the US and the UK all because of some silly gender inequality and religious bigotry.
So I was wondering why is such a grievance allowed to exist in freemasonry?
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Post by beejay on Jan 21, 2013 10:00:10 GMT
It rather depends on which Grand Lodge you choose.
At least one French Grand Lodge accepts atheists - apparently on the grounds that God is a cultural construct. For example a Buddhist might not think in terms of God.
(The requirement that a Mason not be a "stupid atheist" is ambiguous. For example an intelligent atheist might not be excluded by the requirement.)
And various Grand Lodges admit women and men equally.
The English exclusion of women from Masonry seems to be a relatively late practice, probably related to the lack of education of women and their legal status as a chattel (property). There is also the presence in Masonry of a strong Mithraic influence where men were favoured over women.
I sometimes wonder if Masonry is sufficiently unimportant in the Divine Plan that it does not matter that women are generally excluded
>So I was wondering why is such a grievance allowed to exist in freemasonry?
The basic difficulty seems to be that Masons commonly believe that Masonry is a human invention and therefore can be anything that the GL wishes.
On the other hand if Masonry was handed to humans by the gods then there may be rules (landmarks) that are currently unknown. If so, either Masonry will transform or decline to nothingness. The jury is still out on that one.
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Post by pangeansage on Jan 21, 2013 10:24:33 GMT
> At least one French Grand Lodge accepts atheists - apparently on the grounds that God is a cultural construct. For example a Buddhist might not think in terms of God.
I think you mean The Grand Orient of France. By which it is not 'recognized' by Masons of other factions among the UK and the US if I recall correctly.
>(The requirement that a Mason not be a "stupid atheist" is ambiguous. For example an intelligent atheist might not be excluded by the requirement.)
Well, there goes most of the atheist percentage.
> The English exclusion of women from Masonry seems to be a relatively late practice, probably related to the lack of education of women and their legal status as a chattel (property). There is also the presence in Masonry of a strong Mithraic influence where men were favoured over women.
I generally accept the fact that education (at least in america) is substantially poor in quality. However I mainly blame the way society treats the females of our species, as 'different' and 'special'. I think if they treated like males, they would be smarter, but that's just my opinion.
> I sometimes wonder if Masonry is sufficiently unimportant in the Divine Plan that it does not matter that women are generally excluded
What is this Divine Plan?
> The basic difficulty seems to be that Masons commonly believe that Masonry is a human invention and therefore can be anything that the GL wishes. On the other hand if Masonry was handed to humans by the gods then there may be rules (landmarks) that are currently unknown. If so, either Masonry will transform or decline to nothingness. The jury is still out on that one.
Science has proven, that a species that is incapable of adapting to it's environment will go extinct. (whether by lack of intellectual prowess or by the lack of their physical capabilities.) As atheists become more common in the world it would seem only rational to take them in and try to make better men. Even if most of them are stupid, ignorance can only be cured by them learning, refusing to help them learn is not what I'd consider to be very Masonic. From what I've heard Masons try to help others be better.
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Post by beejay on Jan 21, 2013 10:52:29 GMT
>... it is not 'recognized' by Masons of other factions among the UK and the US if I recall correctly.
Is the majority position necessarily just?
>Well, there goes most of the atheist percentage.
Having been taught to be cautious, personally I would not arrive at such a conclusion. Humans may be too complex to be easily categorised.
>What is this Divine Plan?
It existence is demonstrated symbolically in Masonry but its content is not well known.
Generally it is thought that a just and upright life are preconditions to seeing God and the Divine Plan.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 21, 2013 14:40:03 GMT
I would like to know just why Atheists and Women aren't allowed to become Freemasons. It seems highly prejudicial, of course seeing as the society was formed hundreds of years ago it's not hard to figure out where this prejudice may have stemmed from. I've read that it derives it's support from the text of an old grand master. Who called atheists stupid, a clear sign of his own misunderstanding on what atheism is. Which is simply the lack of belief in a god. The entire concept and story line of Freemasonry is derived from the Old Testament, why would an atheist be interested. It would be like a Golfer wanting to play football ? No one is twisting anybodies arm here if you like the club you join, if not don't. I have attended Muslim , Jewish and Buddhist Lodge ceremonies. Pagans can qualify to be admitted into a Masonic mainstream Lodge but it depends on the person not the Religion. There are and have been for many years Women Freemasons and as mentioned Co Masonry. So it is not a question of a gender being excluded rather that is has its own path to follow. www.owf.org.uk/www.hfaf.org/www.co-masonry.org/www.droit-humain.org/uk/www.godf.org/The GODF is not strictly a Grand Lodge it is more of a Federation, however French Freemasonry is going through some dramatic changes right now and it probably evolve over the next year or so somewhat different. Again simply put there is no pressure to join Freemasonry and no pressure to join any particular style or order. You have a look round and join whichever suits you. There are many variations to choose from. Each of us should have the right to decide who is allowed into our house. It would be like me turning up on your doorstep and demanding to be let in. You have the choice to say no ! this is my house. I do not have the right to encroach on your space. If you don't like it don't join, simples.
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Post by pangeansage on Jan 21, 2013 22:11:04 GMT
>The entire concept and story line of Freemasonry is derived from the Old Testament, why would an atheist be interested. It would be like a Golfer wanting to play football ?
I think an atheist could agree with a lot of these points. Sure atheists might not agree with the whole God part, but the atheists that I've met tend to be geared towards humanitarian causes. So I think that an atheist may well like to be a Freemason if it meant a brotherhood for the benefit of all humanity.
>No one is twisting anybodies arm here if you like the club you join, if not don't. I have attended Muslim , Jewish and Buddhist Lodge ceremonies. Pagans can qualify to be admitted into a Masonic mainstream Lodge but it depends on the person not the Religion.
So an atheist would be able to join the Freemasons in the UK and US lodges? It depends on the person right? not the religion? I agree with a lot of what Freemasonry stands for, that is why I'm interested in joining. But the fact that it would deny access to atheists puzzles me since I read that one of the virtues of Freemasonry is equality, and that the Founding Fathers of the United States (some who happened to be masonic) built the U.S. with a vision of equality. It would seem contradicting then both to the states and to the fraternity to not allow equality to take it's course.
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Post by beejay on Jan 21, 2013 22:35:29 GMT
In my view the use of the Old Testament in mainstream Masonry is an artefact of its recent history.
According to Masonic tradition Moses had a lodge in the desert wanderings. I doubt that he had an Old Testament to use. Being trained in the Egyptian tradition he might have used the Book of the Dead - if indeed he felt that a book was relevant at all.
Thus Masonry is clothed in the culture of the time.
At a later time the culture may emphasize the equality of men and women and freedom of thought about the nature of Reality.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 22, 2013 0:58:26 GMT
No I said
The requirement of mainstream Freemasonry is a belief in a supreme being, it does not qualify who or what that is.
You say 'Founding Fathers of the United States' , well they said IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
and then : We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
The pursuit of happiness is not supported by telling those individuals what they should do, or forcing them to do things they do not wish to do, rather it should encompass all the very different factors of human life.
I would always advise to follow the thinking of J F Kennedy. Ask not what your Lodge can do for you, rather what can you do for your Lodge.
There in one short sentence is the entire essence of Freemasonry. If you start with 'what's in it for me ?' you are already on the wrong path, hey though it is your path not mine.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 22, 2013 1:11:37 GMT
In my view the use of the Old Testament in mainstream Masonry is an artefact of its recent history. This will depend on what you condsider recent, are you saying from 1717 on ? While Moses is referred to in Masonic ritual I can not recall there being a Lodge , but this could be my failing memory. But certainly it is not a significant point of Masonic Ritual. Indeed there are schools of thought that believe some of the Old Testament is derived from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, philosophically there are a number of similarities and why not ? However much of the Masonic ritual is directly out of the Bible. I can assure you Men and Women are equal , this I know because my Wife tells me it is so.
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Post by beejay on Jan 22, 2013 2:55:33 GMT
In my view the use of the Old Testament in mainstream Masonry is an artefact of its recent history. This will depend on what you condsider recent, are you saying from 1717 on ? I would regard 1717 as very recent when considering the ancient mysteries of Freemasonry. And there is much from other sources not as commonly read as the Bible and hence usually not recognised in the ritual. The three names associated with the triple grip are obvious examples. Still I tend to side with Albert Mackey: " it must be always remembered that the ceremony is not the substance. It is but the outer garment which covers and perhaps adorns it," www.gutenberg.org/files/11937/11937-h/11937-h.htmThus the outer garment is reformed and re-edited to meet the beliefs of the time. From what little I have seen modern Freemasonry still reflects ancient Freemasonry to a modest degree. It may even be that women are more equal. See for example Doris Lessing "The Marriages Between Zones Three, Four and Five". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marriages_Between_Zones_Three,_Four_and_Five
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Post by billmcelligott on Jan 22, 2013 3:32:29 GMT
OK, but
To quote from your link "To investigate the recondite meaning of these legends and symbols, and to elicit from them the moral and philosophical lessons which they were intended to teach, is to withdraw the veil with which ignorance and indifference seek to conceal the true philosophy of Freemasonry.
To study the symbolism of Masonry is the only way to investigate its philosophy. This is the portal of its temple, through which alone we can gain access to the sacellum where its aporrheta are concealed.
Its philosophy is engaged in the consideration of propositions relating to God and man, to the present and the future life. Its science is the symbolism by which these propositions are presented to the mind." Albert G. Mackey, M.D.
Triple Grip ? the name or names and the grips are not universal, it can be different in various Countries and Orders but I do not think it is a significant point. As you say it is the intent rather than the fact.
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Post by boreades on Feb 26, 2013 21:37:02 GMT
There is plenty of precedent for including women from the roots of masonry.
If you recall your degrees, masons are commanded to study the Seven Liberal Arts. I bet not many masons really do. But if they did, they might have learnt that we know of the 7LA from Pythagoras , Aristotle and Plato. Before forming their own schools, Aristotle and Plato studied in Egypt, where these Seven Liberal Arts were taught as part of an ancient oral tradition, that in turn has roots within oral teachings and traditions in Sumeria and India. The Greek seven liberal arts comprised two groups of studies: the trivium and the quadrivium.
So what? It's relevant because the Quadrivium was first formulated and taught by Pythagoras as the Tetraktys around 500BC, in a community where all were equal, even materially and morally, and where women had equal status to men.
Plato continued this, his Akademeia was open to anyone with the leisure and inclination to frequent its premises. It continued the example of Pythagoras and also admitted women. This was highly unusual for other Greek schools, but they were not teaching the Seven Liberal Arts, which were taught in Plato’s Academy for a thousand years from 500BC until about 450AD.
It's a bit disappointing that so many male masons don't know there are female masons and female masonic lodges as well. But UGLE is slowly but surely getting closer to recognising these as regular lodges.
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Post by beejay on Feb 26, 2013 22:31:31 GMT
I notice that some branches of Christianity use female priests - apparently because they ran out of male priests.
Perhaps male Masonry may come to a similar point and accept women to survive.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 1, 2013 3:51:30 GMT
So what? It's relevant because the Quadrivium was first formulated and taught by Pythagoras as the Tetraktys around 500BC, in a community where all were equal, even materially and morally, and where women had equal status to men. [/size] Pythagoras and the beautiful Theano [/quote]
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Post by boreades on Mar 3, 2013 18:08:08 GMT
Tamrin, this information on Pythagoras is excellent material.
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Post by escape on Mar 23, 2013 9:33:34 GMT
Main stream Freemasonry is a fraternity. That is why it only admits men! Sororities are for women. This is not complicated. You are required to have a belief in God and the immortality of the soul. If you are an atheist why would you bother even to consider it? It’s not for you. Referring to main stream lodges only.
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Post by beejay on Mar 23, 2013 12:02:30 GMT
Main stream Freemasonry is a fraternity. That is why it only admits men! . Perhaps it is the other way around: Because mainstream Masonry mainly admitted men it is called a fraternity - as a justification for its practice.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Mar 23, 2013 14:06:02 GMT
Main stream Freemasonry is a fraternity. That is why it only admits men! Like the medical fraternity and the legal fraternity!?
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 23, 2013 17:55:21 GMT
Main stream Freemasonry is a fraternity. That is why it only admits men! . Perhaps it is the other way around: Because mainstream Masonry mainly admitted men it is called a fraternity - as a justification for its practice.What came first Freemasonry or Fraternities. ? Why is it there is never a complaint about Sororities not accepting men ?
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Post by beejay on Mar 23, 2013 20:08:40 GMT
Why is it there is never a complaint about Sororities not accepting men ? I think the issue is whether Freemasonry is an important means for improving humans. I find these options: - Freemasonry is so important that the GAOTU restricted it to men - Freemasonry is so unimportant that the GAOTU does not mind that it is restricted to men
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