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Post by Quin on Mar 31, 2014 16:21:57 GMT
Hey , we are not promoting anything. If you do not like Freemasonry then move on. If you wish to discuss Freemasonry then that is what this forum ifs for. Your list has been selected to prove your point, we can show many words that do not follow the point you wish to force. It is a bit like going out to the woodshed for wood and being surprised the place is full of wood. Masonic = 444 Freemasonry = 834 Brotherhood = 768 Charity = 504 You choose to use the specifis words that natch your thesis. It just does not hold up under scrutiny.
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Post by Quin on Mar 31, 2014 16:40:10 GMT
Look Bill you could keep on playing someone's Crazy Making and Gaslighting game, but what the point. Crazy Making and Gaslighting are just passive agressive ways people use to try and control other and their environment, due to their lack of control over themselves. It's apparent that some people are all about sowing the seed of discord, or neurotic discordia, do to their perceived need to control others and their environment, this what Dr William Glasser calls Control Psychology. There not people that practice what Choice Psychology. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasser%27s_choice_theoryIf someone doesn't like Freemasonry then really not in my power to make someone like or dislike/agree with or disagree with any thing. Some people are offended that I'm a Mason. there are many other thing that I'm so surprised that people are offended that I believe in. So what?
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Post by billmcelligott on Mar 31, 2014 17:55:27 GMT
Been doing this for a long , long time. In my opinion reasoned and open discussion is the way you deflect the accuser.
If their argument is solid they should be able to make a stupid idiot like me see the light. If they just want a few minutes of small time fame then God Bless them.
But if he public see that we are not afraid of debate on those who criticise then that will determine their opinion on Freemasonry
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Post by bigdaddyv on Mar 31, 2014 18:07:14 GMT
I am not offended by you being a Mason, I'm trying to help you because I believe you are being deceived. My heart is in the right place, I assure you. I have some more evidence for you to consider, and it relates to the Kabbalah and the qliphoth. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth. Look at the the attributions of this unholy bullshit. Tubal Cain is, in fact, attributed to the qliphoth, NOT the Kabbalah. I urge you to get out. "Once a Mason, always a Mason" is sheer propaganda intent on deceiving you. Not even all Freemasons agree on that. According to this: freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/member.html, it, in fact, IS possible to unmake yourself as a Mason (Not that you need someone's permission: just look to one of the Holy Books for advise.) Freemasonry, Rosicrucian-ism, Thelema, and Hermetic philosophy all stem from the same BEAST. I know because I was involved in all of them save Thelema. Once again, I urge you to watch a video entitled 'The Secret Covenant' on Youtube. Whether you know it or not (which you most likely don't), you are helping to push that agenda.
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Post by peter2 on Apr 1, 2014 7:57:53 GMT
.. Tubal Cain is, in fact, attributed to the qliphoth, NOT the Kabbalah.... Tubal Cain, I understand, was the god of the Kenites (Cainites) and regarded by them as being cloven-hoofed. Tubal Cain apparently taught the use of metals particularly for weapons and the use of make-up on women. In Masonry we are taught to pass by Tubal Cain and his desire for worldly possessions otherwise we are not fit to be a MM. (As a side note, the Kabbalah includes both the dark and the light trees. This is reflected in the Western saying: Demon deus inversus est.)
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 1, 2014 11:26:46 GMT
I am not offended by you being a Mason, I'm trying to help you because I believe you are being deceived. My heart is in the right place, I assure you. I have some more evidence for you to consider, and it relates to the Kabbalah and the qliphoth. I too I'm trying to help you because I believe you are being deceived. You have swallowed the anti hysterical rhetoric that is used by many publicists. David Icke is one example Ephesians 5:11 another. Sew the seeds of panic and then sell the book or video that will save you all from damnation. Its the same old snake oil salemanship as demonstrated in that magnificent film 'Elmer Gantry'. Again you have to come forward with some kind of evidence. You have to show that the £ 50 million donated to a variety of Charities [its an open book overseen by the Charity commission] each year in the UK by Freemasonry has its roots in evil of some kind. Show the people in the US that the burns units promote the Beast. Bring forward something more than rhetoric and inuendo. I can confirm this challenge because I know you can not do it.
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Post by peter2 on Apr 2, 2014 10:40:10 GMT
... I'm trying to help you because I believe you are being deceived. .... The number of phony quotes you have provided suggests that the deception does not originate with the brethren.
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Post by bigdaddyv on Apr 4, 2014 15:48:25 GMT
According to my research, all esoteric/occult orders are Luciferian, and the deceptive false religions spoken of in the Bible. Please do not take my word for it, instead do the research. Doesn't the essential structure of Freemasonry concern you? It is said that Master Mason is the highest degree, but what about the non-clandestine rites with higher degrees? Obviously there are secrets being withheld from you who are not members of the higher degrees. I've decided to post a link to the Secret Covenant video, as I believe it is essential that you watch it. Nobody wants to believe they're waist deep in Luciferianism, but I urge you to at least research the idea. Also, the link below is to the Secret Covenant video I keep referencing. I believe it is essential that you watch it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=THE_d0fA9Eo
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Post by sammy on Apr 4, 2014 16:14:38 GMT
I believe like any organization, system, or gathering of men is going to go whatever way the practicer conceives. There is also study of its enlightenment and path toward the divine, and also protection of the holy land in the Knights Templar. The good documented far outweighs the bad, and the goal has been the same intention since. You would also be saying Catholicism is Luciferian because of the Knights Templar, and again a structure, system, etc... I hardly see Mother Theresa as satanic.
You will find what you seek, merely because you are seeking it. Your thoughts have lead you to a truth, and you are taking it as the whole truth and nothing but. This is also going into judgment of one because of another. A very slippery slope to be sure.
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Post by william on Apr 5, 2014 6:20:16 GMT
According to my research, all esoteric/occult orders are Luciferian, and the deceptive false religions spoken of in the Bible. Please do not take my word for it, instead do the research. Doesn't the essential structure of Freemasonry concern you? It is said that Master Mason is the highest degree, but what about the non-clandestine rites with higher degrees? Obviously there are secrets being withheld from you who are not members of the higher degrees. I've decided to post a link to the Secret Covenant video, as I believe it is essential that you watch it. Nobody wants to believe they're waist deep in Luciferianism, but I urge you to at least research the idea. Also, the link below is to the Secret Covenant video I keep referencing. I believe it is essential that you watch it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=THE_d0fA9EoHi bigdaddyv I am wondering what you think of the fact that 'Jesus' and 'Lucifer' add up to the same number. (444)
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Post by peter2 on Apr 5, 2014 7:33:22 GMT
Hi bigdaddyv I am wondering what you think of the fact that 'Jesus' and 'Lucifer' add up to the same number. (444) And: Time to move on.
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Post by bigdaddyv on Apr 10, 2014 16:31:09 GMT
Sorry for the delay in responding, but I had to take care of some personal issues. Anyways, let me re-state that all gematria means is that words bear a relationship to each other. Based on the bad man association with my user-name, I do seriously consider it. There are obviously others with the same username, but at one point in my life, I was engulfed in sin (and I still am to a certain extent, although I'm trying to break it). So I certainly take it to heart and am thankful for the insight. The gematria associations aren't always easy to untangle, as there are some things that seemingly bear no relation to one another, but assuming gematria works, there is some association to be uncovered. As for Jesus = Lucifer, that is very interesting. Perhaps they bear a relation in that Jesus and Lucifer are equal in power, but on opposite ends of the spectrum; maybe one is assigned to the light tree and another to the dark tree. Based on my research of the subject, I do believe lucifer is another name for the entity referred to as satan. In response to the proclamations of Masonic charity, I believe this quote is well-suited:
"(2 Corinthians 11:14-15) And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works."
I am aware that many Masons are not Christians, but for those of you who are, Bill Schnoebelen gives an excellent talk. Having been briefly involved in occultism myself, the things he says are accurate to the best of my knowledge. In fact, the reason I did the Entered Apprentice degree was based on my interest in esoterica. I had heard these things before I joined, but I drank the Masonic Kool-Aid so-to-speak and assumed that Masonry was more of simply a means of initiation not forcing you to choose a certain path. I believe the power comes from an unholy source. If I'm correct, I urge others to take comfort in this:
"Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."
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Post by bigdaddyv on Apr 10, 2014 17:09:49 GMT
Also, look at the logos on the bottom of the webpage for the Thule Society: thule-society.org/ (I can assure you that there is nothing good about the Thule Society). It definitely does a great job of pointing out the relation between these masks of satan.
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 10, 2014 17:33:31 GMT
lucifer = isiah 12 - 14 "shining one, morning star, Lucifer" - there have been those that propose it is Jesus. Many theories and few facts. Bill Schnoebelen www.masonicinfo.com/schnoebelen.htm--------------- Here's the quick run-down: he claims that he was a 'witch' (whatever his definition of that is) for some 16 years until he discovered that being a witch was evil. (He has created his own definitions whereby paganism is the same as witchcraft.) He was a Mormon for some 5 years until he discovered their supposed evils. And he was a Mason (for 8-9 years) until he discovered that Freemasonry (he now claims) was evil as well. ----------------- [ Take a guess at the common denominator - Oh, by the way you can buy Bills Books on the same site he lambasts Freemasons - profits must be for the Church, a good Christian would not make a profit from this dedicated stance ? ] or maybe there were no profits in Wiccan and Mormon ? Lost sheep - you have to first work out the qualifications of the shepherd. It can not be reasonable for someone to appear out of nowhere and look to decide which is a lost sheep. The shepherd in the parable would have been with the sheep his entire life. It is like the old 'Benny Hill' gag where he conducts the old lady accross the road and as she then arrives at the far side, she hits him over the head with her brolly because she did not want to cross that road.
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Post by peter2 on Apr 10, 2014 22:19:17 GMT
That can be a problem. We all know that believing does not make it so. So how can you test your beliefs? Many believers are encouraged when others believe the same things, but that is not proof. And some religions encourage belief as a virtue (faith). That is easier than having to provide proof. Each of us chooses our own path to Reality and on this forum we do not criticize your choice. I hope, however, that you can see that attempting to convert others to your own beliefs, if taken to extremes, could be seen as undue interference in the process of free will. Cheers
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Post by sammy on Apr 11, 2014 17:12:53 GMT
To each his own, is it not? A brother in support of a brother without imposing on free will, is not the brother responsible for the actions done.
I consider myself a follower of physics, and other physicists my brothers. Does this make me responsible for the atomic bomb or other instruments of war?
In life there is a spectrum of choices. We then pick from it, each to our own.
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Post by sammy on Apr 11, 2014 17:17:51 GMT
Got a bit sidetracked...
My point in this was, it can all be related because it all IS related. It is all from the same spectrum of choice, that is offered to mankind.
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Post by william on Apr 11, 2014 21:52:35 GMT
Thank you for your reply bigdaddyv I am often reminded of two thoughts in relation to this subject. 1: We all have our demons to deal with. Lucifer is Jesus' demon. 2: Paul would have done well to take his own advice regarding angels of light/visions etc in relation to his own conversion experience. Jesus warned that there would come after his departure, many who would say and do things in his name as a way to deceive others and profit by the deception. Paul's own message is somewhat contradictory to that of Jesus' and in general the Bible is a collection of contradictions especially in relation to ideas of god. I take the bible as a book of metaphor. Christianity today comes from a history largely shaped by Christendom and the investors in Manifest Destiny (of which it is fair to say Masonry also has had a hand in) and even the bible (revelations) tends to condemn Christendom and the infiltration's it committed. You would do well to put at least as much effort into the history of Christianity as you have obviously placed in your study of the history of Masonry.
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Post by bigdaddyv on Apr 12, 2014 18:03:41 GMT
I'll take note of that, I do still have MUCH to learn on Christianity. However, I do believe the Bible is a Holy Book and therefore has some very good advice. Although I do have one other thing that I would like to point out based on Manly P. Hall's writings: "When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mastery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a ploughshare." I'm not going to go into the whole 'Lucifer' thing again, but I would like to point out that, at least based on Hall's writings, Masons are the descendants of Tubal-Cain. If I am wrong about this, though, the whole argument goes out the window, so let me know if I'm incorrect. Now, assuming Masons are the descendants of Tubal-Cain, some very important information is revealed here. I know that I have already made this argument, but I would like to connect the dots and show what is going on here, so I'll post a link to the qliphothic tree again: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth. Based on this information, claiming lineage from Tubal Cain is obviously not a good thing. On top of this, I would like to post another quote from Hall's writings: "CEREMONIAL magic is the ancient art of invoking and controlling spirits by a scientific application of certain formulæ. A magician, enveloped in sanctified vestments and carrying a wand inscribed with hieroglyphic figures, could by the power vested in certain words and symbols control the invisible inhabitants of the elements and of the astral world. While the elaborate ceremonial magic of antiquity was not necessarily evil, there arose from its perversion several false schools of sorcery, or black magic. Egypt, a great center of learning and the birthplace of many arts and sciences, furnished an ideal environment for transcendental experimentation. Here the black magicians of Atlantis continued to exercise their superhuman powers until they had completely undermined and corrupted the morals of the primitive Mysteries. By establishing a sacerdotal caste they usurped the position formerly occupied by the initiates, and seized the reins of spiritual government. Thus black magic dictated the state religion and paralyzed the intellectual and spiritual activities of the individual by demanding his complete and unhesitating acquiescence in the dogma formulated by the priestcraft. The Pharaoh became a puppet in the hands of the Scarlet Council--a committee of arch-sorcerers elevated to power by the priesthood. These sorcerers then began the systematic destruction of all keys to the ancient wisdom, so that none might have access to the knowledge necessary to reach adeptship without first becoming one of their order. They mutilated the rituals of the Mysteries while professing to preserve them, so that even though the neophyte passed through the degrees he could not secure the knowledge to which he was entitled. Idolatry was introduced by encouraging the worship of the images which in the beginning the wise had erected solely as symbols for study and meditation. False interpretations were given to the emblems and figures of the Mysteries, and elaborate theologies were created to confuse the minds of their devotees. The masses, deprived of their birthright of understanding and groveling in ignorance, eventually became the abject slaves of the spiritual impostors. Superstition universally prevailed and the black magicians completely dominated national affairs, with the result that humanity still suffers from the sophistries of the priestcrafts of Atlantis and Egypt." My question is this: how does one know that Freemasonry has not fallen victim to exactly what Hall describes in this book?
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Post by peter2 on Apr 12, 2014 20:48:06 GMT
And that of course is the position of Masonry with the Bible being on the altar of most lodges.
Is it worth pointing out that MP Hall did not become a Freemason until about 30 years after he wrote that book?
It won't surprise you to discover the Masons do not regard themselves as descendents of Tubal Cain, in fact the ritual, somewhat obscurely, requires the brother to pass by TC.
Done
You might like to consider what symptoms the presence of qliphotic energies might have if they were present in a religion. Religious wars perhaps? Lots of those to find.
Ceremonial ritual is common in some churches complete with sanctified vestments.
Acts 7:22 and Moses was taught in all wisdom of the Egyptians, and he was powerful in words and in works.
I suggest that you meet some brethren and discover for yourself whether they are good men (and good women in some orders)
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