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Post by billmcelligott on May 20, 2016 6:40:26 GMT
I'm really not sure how this got hijacked into a discussion on what God might think. Personally I think if we accept the paradigm of an omnipotent and all powerful creator God, than us poor fallible mortals trying to understand his will have about as much chance as a baby trying to figure out its parents motivation for their actions (or lack thereof). We do what we can with what we have, and if God is truly compassionate then he understands, and if he doesn't then to quote Kingdom of Heaven "then He is not God, and we need not worry" But anyway, I'm really just trying to get ideas from brothers who have done things in their lodges and noticed an impact. Failed programs are still good info. Then I can dig down and find out the root causes and the 'why' of how it worked, or didn't work, and then come back with ideas based on that data. Well you kinda illuded to the concept in the framework of your questions. [1] Freemasonry has always been something greater, a fraternity of men making each other, and the world around us better. We are, or should be, men who work to fit our every action, thought, and belief into the due bounds of our obligations, and who the non-initiated might look at and desire to emulate. Men who may disagree with their brethren, but do not allow that to color their interaction with each other or their attendance at lodge. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke [ 2 ] The soul and spirit of Masonry, to me, isn't that much of a mystery. If I read the ritual and really listen to the words, the charges, and the obligations - I find the soul and spirit of Freemasonry easily enough. [ 3 ] It rather depends on whether the GAOTU has any interest in Masonry. If not it can be anything we want, racially and sexually segregated with exclusive territory and identical rituals that do not change with the seasons. If you wish to steer in a different direction , nothing stopping that.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 9:03:31 GMT
As I mentioned in the post above I have tried many actions and ideas to inject some discussion into the Lodge. As Freemasons we made a vow to make a daily advancement and also to study the hidden mysteries of nature and science.
There are many masons out there who take this seriously but unfortunately for many the hidden mysteries consist of "what is the meal tonight?"
I have met many masons who join thinking one thing and then discover that it is all one big lie.
Some of these leave without ever discovering that there is exactly the kind of masonry they want out there but no'one has mentioned it to them.
In my experience (and I would stress this is only my own experience) the ideals of Freemasonry are not addressed in Craft Lodges.
Partly this is because we have pandered to outsiders and changed our rituals to appease them but also because members use the Lodge more as a dining and social club.
There are orders which encompass the whole ideals of brotherly love, relief and truth and which put many craft Lodges to shame as well as orders which actively study the esoteric and every meeting papers are delivered by the members.
These orders require one to be a Master Mason before joining but I know of many who joined Masonry purely to join these orders and others who resigned from the Craft but would never resign from these orders.
Therefore the Craft is seen purely as a steeping stone because of its own inaction. These members cannot find what they are seeking and so they look elsewhere.
If they were ever to remove the restriction on one having to be a Freemason to join then I believe the Craft would lose many members.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 9:18:10 GMT
Further to my last I saw a very thought provoking flowchart recently entitled "why you shouldn't join the Masons".
It was looking at the reasons behind joining and included such things as "I want to support charity" = Join the Rotary I want to give back something in the community = Join the Round Table / Help in a Soup kitchen
These really are things that need to be sorted out by the Lodge Committee when interviewing the Candidate. It needs to be "Can we offer the Candidate what he needs? It may be that Freemasonry cannot provide that, in which case the Candidate needs to be informed of that. Equally it may be that another Lodge can better provide that, again something can be done to support that decision.
I met a candidate who openly admitted he was an atheist as he was a scientist and his reason for joining was that all his managers were Freemasons so it would help his career.
Upon stating that I did not believe he would get anything out of Freemasonry and was in fact an unsuitable candidate I was told in no uncertain terms to provide a alternate candidate for the next meeting otherwise we would have no work.
I announced that I could not support the candidate and acted accordingly. Upon displaying the result my ball was palmed and upon raising it later was informed that one ball did not count.
Anyway my point is that Freemasonry should be about what is best for the Candidate, not what is best purely for the Lodge.
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Post by johnsoncm1 on May 20, 2016 15:51:58 GMT
Ozymandius,
Firstly, that was a very honest and intelligent answer and I could not agree more. This is an important fact that I can use and one I feel is shared by many of the brethren.
Second, do you think you can locate that flow chart on the web? I think it might go a long was to driving home that particular point.
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Post by offramp on May 22, 2016 13:00:12 GMT
But I have often wonders what happens if one slides into atheism? I read an article by an atheist Jew, probably Finkelstein in the Times, where the atheist said that he still obeyed all the laws and observed the holy days.
There is a lot to be learned from following religious practices without believing in God. In fact, imagine how much better the world would be if everyone believed just that... Following the teachings of, say, Jesus without believing in God.
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Post by peter2 on May 22, 2016 22:27:20 GMT
It may be useful to distinguish a theist from a deist.
The theist accepts the existence of personal gods such as Osiris and Jesus while a deist accepts that there is some ultimate cause of Existence.
Thus a deist may well be atheist and that is common for Buddhists.
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