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Post by wiclas on Aug 8, 2017 20:45:31 GMT
Hey all, I live in Finland, and I am very interested in Freemasonry. There is no forums as this in my country, and I accidently found myself here, and this seemed so great place, that I decided to join here.
I am not a freemason, but I have been thinking about joining in some Lodge. I do not know any masons, but I have been reading pretty much about this, and every year it starts to feel more like my thing.
At first I want to ask, could I accidently find some info at this site, that could tell too much what I will experience? I love to read about masonry, but I do not like to read rituals and secrets too precisely, because I have heard that they are better when experienced in the lodge?
And also, I want to hear more about you, tell me your stories, what do you see freemasonry is, why are you interested in it etc.. because I see, that personal stories gives me a deeper feeling about the activity. I'd like to hear you rather than just read about it in the web. Not revealing the secrets of course, but parts of your journey.
If you have time, I am more than a happy to hear you.
-Las (27yo male)
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Post by peter2 on Aug 8, 2017 23:20:46 GMT
Finland might seem far away but it is closely related to the double-headed eagle of the ancient mysteries. > accidentally find some info at this site, that could tell too much Probably not. > I want to hear more about you, tell me your stories Like many Masonic forums this is pretty quiet these days. I suggest that you read the old threads; there is much of interest there. And if points interest you, make a post on those threads and I am sure you will get a response. There is a Grand Lodge in Finland. www.vapaamuurarit.fi/It seems from a quick scan that there are or have been both US and Swedish influences in Finnish Masonry. These are two quite different forms of Masonry - one somewhat Deist and the other definitely Christian. It seems that Finnish Masonry currently takes the Christian form. web.mit.edu/dryfoo/masonry/Reports/finl.htmlThere is also a form of Masonry that admits women as well as men. They tend to be more spiritually oriented and are working to set up an English-speaking lodge in Helsinki. Their ritual will probably be Deist - only requiring the candidate to state they have a belief in a supreme being - leaving the specifics of the belief an entirely private matter. www.droithumain.fi/index.php
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 11, 2017 11:28:54 GMT
There are quite some Masonic fora on the world wide web. Some fairly active, many not so. The boards you're on now is open to members of mixed gender lodges, who are not always very heartily received on fora were many members are "regular". There you immediately hear that Freemasonry is not one worldwide organisation. There are many, many Grand Lodges, Grand Orients and similar umbrella organisations (usually per country or state, sometimes international). Sometimes these organisations recognize each other, sometimes not. Quite a maze.
I myself (male, as you can guess from my name) am member of a mixed gender lodge, but not a member of the oldest and best known mixed gender organisation, Master Mason since about a year, member for a little over three years.
There is a big variety in Masonry. In some organisations lodges can work in different Rites, there are many different organisations with each its peculiarities. Contact between lodges (either or not from other organisations) can by heartily or less so. Oh well, where to begin. Anything in particular you're curious about?
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Post by wiclas on Aug 13, 2017 13:00:36 GMT
Finland might seem far away but it is closely related to the double-headed eagle of the ancient mysteries. > accidentally find some info at this site, that could tell too much Probably not. > I want to hear more about you, tell me your stories Like many Masonic forums this is pretty quiet these days. I suggest that you read the old threads; there is much of interest there. And if points interest you, make a post on those threads and I am sure you will get a response. There is a Grand Lodge in Finland. www.vapaamuurarit.fi/It seems from a quick scan that there are or have been both US and Swedish influences in Finnish Masonry. These are two quite different forms of Masonry - one somewhat Deist and the other definitely Christian. It seems that Finnish Masonry currently takes the Christian form. web.mit.edu/dryfoo/masonry/Reports/finl.htmlThere is also a form of Masonry that admits women as well as men. They tend to be more spiritually oriented and are working to set up an English-speaking lodge in Helsinki. Their ritual will probably be Deist - only requiring the candidate to state they have a belief in a supreme being - leaving the specifics of the belief an entirely private matter. www.droithumain.fi/index.phpThank you for answering, even forum is getting silent, I am happy to see that some answers are here. I am searching a lodge, and in my town there are two or three of them. One of them accepts females, and for me that fits perhaps better for me.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 13, 2017 13:11:09 GMT
Finland might seem far away but it is closely related to the double-headed eagle of the ancient mysteries. > accidentally find some info at this site, that could tell too much Probably not. > I want to hear more about you, tell me your stories Like many Masonic forums this is pretty quiet these days. I suggest that you read the old threads; there is much of interest there. And if points interest you, make a post on those threads and I am sure you will get a response. There is a Grand Lodge in Finland. www.vapaamuurarit.fi/It seems from a quick scan that there are or have been both US and Swedish influences in Finnish Masonry. These are two quite different forms of Masonry - one somewhat Deist and the other definitely Christian. It seems that Finnish Masonry currently takes the Christian form. web.mit.edu/dryfoo/masonry/Reports/finl.htmlThere is also a form of Masonry that admits women as well as men. They tend to be more spiritually oriented and are working to set up an English-speaking lodge in Helsinki. Their ritual will probably be Deist - only requiring the candidate to state they have a belief in a supreme being - leaving the specifics of the belief an entirely private matter. www.droithumain.fi/index.phpThank you for answering, even forum is getting silent, I am happy to see that some answers are here. I am searching a lodge, and in my town there are two or three of them. One of them accepts females, and for me that fits perhaps better for me. Aa, I did not know that lodges are so different. I knew mixed gender lodges and after becoming a mason, there is two paths to continue, but I did not know that lodges are more like a separate organizations. So are there many different lodges in your city? And are there lots of people under 30 in the lodges? And another thing, that I have been thinking, is that I know, that you have rituals for all of the degrees, but what are you doing there usually? At the time, when there is no one having a certain degree? Just having some usual ritual or...?
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Post by peter2 on Aug 13, 2017 21:48:52 GMT
>At the time, when there is no one having a certain degree? Just having some usual ritual or...?
That rather depends upon the lodge but it may well be that one of the brethren delivers a talk on some aspect of Freemasonry.
Some lodges will do an exemplification of an initiation - to keep in practice.
If there are no candidates for quite some time the brethren will start to lose interest. This lack of progressive work for brethren is a real flaw in modern Freemasonry.
We are told that Freemasonry is a science but it is very hard to find any brethren actively pursuing Masonic Science.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 14, 2017 5:31:18 GMT
>At the time, when there is no one having a certain degree? Just having some usual ritual or...? That rather depends upon the lodge but it may well be that one of the brethren delivers a talk on some aspect of Freemasonry. Some lodges will do an exemplification of an initiation - to keep in practice. If there are no candidates for quite some time the brethren will start to lose interest. This lack of progressive work for brethren is a real flaw in modern Freemasonry. We are told that Freemasonry is a science but it is very hard to find any brethren actively pursuing Masonic Science. Now I am at the right place thank you. I have been interested in freemasonry for ~5years, but it is really big step to join an organization, when I did not really know what do they do inside their lodges. Freemasons do not talk so much their things. One guy wrote in one thread, that they repeat basicly same ritual over, and just see it from a different perspective. But does that work if there is no new members? And the question about higher degrees, how often do you have these? E.g. grand master architect or similar? (If you were in the scottish?) And do they fit in the same ritual as lower level rituals do, only contains more information about it? Thank you for your answers, I do not know why masons do not tell a bit more about their activites inside their lodges. I understand why they keep some rituals and details in secrecy, but in general freemasonry seems to public a secret society, even it is more than a club that does not tell everything in the public. But I have to admit, that mysteries and very beatiful lodges raises my interest towards the organisation, even that is not my first reason to join freemasonry.
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Post by peter2 on Aug 14, 2017 6:01:00 GMT
>But does that work if there is no new members?
The current form of Freemasonry is at the end of a cycle with generally declining numbers since 1950. Still there is much that can be learned from the ritual if brethren are willing to pursue Masonic Science.
>higher degrees, how often do you have these?
Where I am, typically 4 meetings per year.
>E.g. grand master architect
Most of the Scottish degrees are not usually worked - being somewhat simple in their nature. The worked degrees usually are 18th and 30th, with less activity in 31st and 32nd.
>even it is more than a club that does not tell everything in the public.
The formal secrets in Masonry are widely available on the web, but these secrets are recognition signs by which the brethren prove themselves, not the genuine secrets.
Some of the genuine secrets are concealed in the ritual but even those need to be discovered by hard work and inner development.
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 14, 2017 9:18:20 GMT
A few things are running through each other here. "Freemasonry" is not one organisations. Actually there are many, many different organisations that use the term. Some of them accept only men, some only women, some both, some only Christians, others only atheists, etc., etc. These different organisations may "recognise" each other or not. The 'premier Grand Lodge' (nowadays called United Grand Lodge of England) accept only men who at least believe in 'something higher' and all other forms of Freemasonry can only be "irregular" to them. Most members do not accept mixed gender Freemasonry for example. There are also men-only organisations that accept atheists, which (of course) to UGLE members are "irregular" and so a complex landscape emerges. There are also more organisations that accept women, not just Le Droit Humain. In my own country, there are 5 different mixed gender organisations, two independent mixed gender lodges and two (currently independent) women's only lodges (plus the Weavers). Some of these organisations have higher grades, one only had a Royal Arch degree alongside the 'blue degrees'. I'm currently 'only' MM myself, but the 'red' organisation attached to my 'blue' organisation meets once a month. Looking at ages, I can say that the only "regular" organisation in my country (and also the only men-only) has a higher average age than mixed gender lodges. Weavers tend to have a fairly high average age too. In my own lodge it depends on the agenda what we do. Last year we had no initiations, no FC and only one MM degree. Other nights can be lecture, practice, Saint John and general administrative gettogethers. About mixed gender Freemasonry, this website could be of interest: comasonry.wordpress.com/
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Post by wiclas on Aug 14, 2017 10:01:07 GMT
>But does that work if there is no new members? The current form of Freemasonry is at the end of a cycle with generally declining numbers since 1950. Still there is much that can be learned from the ritual if brethren are willing to pursue Masonic Science. >higher degrees, how often do you have these? Where I am, typically 4 meetings per year. >E.g. grand master architect Most of the Scottish degrees are not usually worked - being somewhat simple in their nature. The worked degrees usually are 18th and 30th, with less activity in 31st and 32nd. >even it is more than a club that does not tell everything in the public. The formal secrets in Masonry are widely available on the web, but these secrets are recognition signs by which the brethren prove themselves, not the genuine secrets. Some of the genuine secrets are concealed in the ritual but even those need to be discovered by hard work and inner development. Do masonry include questions, where you begin to ask yourself philosphical questions? Does degrees contain these, and how can one fail a degree?
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 14, 2017 10:23:45 GMT
As with many things you wonder about, this differs per organisation/lodge. There are lodges that use a "catechism", a Q&A that a candidate is investigated in before (s)he can proceed to the next degree. In my own lodge you hold a lecture and when that is good enough, you can go to a next degree.
As for "questions", the whole Masonic system is a question, but answers aren't provided. Each member has to figure out for him-/herself what the symbolism means, what the rituals are for, etc. Of course you will hear other people's opinions, but (if all goes well) nobody is going to give you 'definite answers'.
Basically you can see it like this: there is a somewhat coherent story that is spread over three degree. At your initiation you will experience a part of it and half a time to ponder the symbolism, when you become Fellow Craft and Master Mason you will learn more of the 'story'.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 14, 2017 11:08:57 GMT
As with many things you wonder about, this differs per organisation/lodge. There are lodges that use a "catechism", a Q&A that a candidate is investigated in before (s)he can proceed to the next degree. In my own lodge you hold a lecture and when that is good enough, you can go to a next degree. As for "questions", the whole Masonic system is a question, but answers aren't provided. Each member has to figure out for him-/herself what the symbolism means, what the rituals are for, etc. Of course you will hear other people's opinions, but (if all goes well) nobody is going to give you 'definite answers'. Basically you can see it like this: there is a somewhat coherent story that is spread over three degree. At your initiation you will experience a part of it and half a time to ponder the symbolism, when you become Fellow Craft and Master Mason you will learn more of the 'story'. This is getting even more interesting. I highly appreciate masonic way to teach things. There are too many people, who say, what life is, god is etc.. but if answers comes from inside, they feels more deep and gives more value for us. Other's opinions are great, but we all need to find the truth in our own ways.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 14, 2017 11:46:11 GMT
I also heard rumours, that in freemasonry, you create a solomon's temple, but you in a way build it inside you?
Great to hear what you basically do there when there is no initiation rituals going on. There is a lots of job to do inside the lodge. There is some sort of guides, even the one that looks like a bookkeepper or something.. do they all play their parts? Guards, guides... and what about master masons, that sits in the side of the room, do they have anything to do?
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 14, 2017 11:51:36 GMT
Many people nowadays are seeking their own truth, us individualistic creatures. You can (like me) study a whole lot of different things and see how far you get, but the nice thing about Freemasonry is that it already has a structure and you can start studying that and expand from there. It is more interesting to think about what a certain symbolism does in a certain place in a ritual, than just think about a symbol, if you get where I'm going. Once the first is figured out, you may wonder: so why it is different in another (Masonic) ritual, or: what can the symbolism mean in a non-Masonic context?
In the proces, you also learn that other people have different perspectives about the same subjects and these perspectives are just as valuable as your own, even if you don't agree with them. You CAN be sure, though, that these other perspectives will make you question your own. That doesn't mean that you will change opinion, but 'polish' it so to way (or think of more arguments to support it).
Of course in order to be able to enjoy the system of Freemasonry, you will have to enjoy ritual action. The symbolism of Freemasonry is not in the texts, but in the 'performance' of these texts and the experience of these rituals. There you have the often-alluded to 'secret' of Freemasonry. You can read 10 books about playing the piano, but you won't be able to play yourself. You can read all about Freemasonry (including the rituals if you do a little digging), but you still won't understand why people drive to lodge every (other) week. A piece of the ritual gets stuck in your head. At home you pick a book that you connected to that piece and the piece may get a new meaning to you. There you have the system of Freemasonry.
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 14, 2017 12:14:15 GMT
I also heard rumours, that in freemasonry, you create a solomon's temple, but you in a way build it inside you? That's not a rumour :-) The Temple of King Solomon is roughly the basis of Masonic symbolism. The three degrees are three degrees of workers on the temple and indeed, you are your own temple, so you're actually working on your self. There are formal and informal meetings. The formal meetings take place in, what some people call, the temple. There is a variety of functions in a formal meeting. There is a Worshipful Master leading the meeting, there are two Wardens who have a role inside and outside the temple, somebody making minutes (the Secretary), somebody who sees to it that everybody is in the right place, that candles are lit, etc. (the Master of Ceremonies), depending on the lodge there is a guard outside the temple and one on the inside of the door. There may be somebody attending to the music, etc. Depending on the lodge, there can be eight people with a function, sometimes more. The rest, indeed, sit on the sides, no matter if they are Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft of Master Mason. They have no active part in the proceedings, but that is not entirely true :-) Besides, with many people jumping up when a sign is to be given or many people smiling at a candidate as (s)he is passing by, makes a meeting much more fun than a meeting with only the people with a function present.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 14, 2017 19:11:37 GMT
Many people nowadays are seeking their own truth, us individualistic creatures. You can (like me) study a whole lot of different things and see how far you get, but the nice thing about Freemasonry is that it already has a structure and you can start studying that and expand from there. It is more interesting to think about what a certain symbolism does in a certain place in a ritual, than just think about a symbol, if you get where I'm going. Once the first is figured out, you may wonder: so why it is different in another (Masonic) ritual, or: what can the symbolism mean in a non-Masonic context? In the proces, you also learn that other people have different perspectives about the same subjects and these perspectives are just as valuable as your own, even if you don't agree with them. You CAN be sure, though, that these other perspectives will make you question your own. That doesn't mean that you will change opinion, but 'polish' it so to way (or think of more arguments to support it). Of course in order to be able to enjoy the system of Freemasonry, you will have to enjoy ritual action. The symbolism of Freemasonry is not in the texts, but in the 'performance' of these texts and the experience of these rituals. There you have the often-alluded to 'secret' of Freemasonry. You can read 10 books about playing the piano, but you won't be able to play yourself. You can read all about Freemasonry (including the rituals if you do a little digging), but you still won't understand why people drive to lodge every (other) week. A piece of the ritual gets stuck in your head. At home you pick a book that you connected to that piece and the piece may get a new meaning to you. There you have the system of Freemasonry. First things, that led me read about freemasonry, was symbology. I thought, that you have answers of all the secret symbols from the ancient times and have learned all the mysteries they contain, but now it seems like that the more I seek, I get one answers and three questions? so that rituals does nit even tell the actual meaning, it is more like everyone get the meaning that fits for them? But well, if there was a certain meaning of a one symbol, it would have already been revealed. And if someone says that all seeing eye represents god, it doesn't contain nothing. That is why I see, it needs to experience rather than just know.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 14, 2017 19:14:41 GMT
I read a book about Solomon. He was a great magickan, and he summoned demons, as far as the book told. I have not heard that freemasons summon demons, so what do you think Solomon was? Does it have anything to do with Demons according to Masonic view?
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Post by peter2 on Aug 14, 2017 20:41:45 GMT
>what do you think Solomon was?
This question is complicated by the alleged age of the Old Testament and by the lack of any archeological evidence for Solomon. For example the Song of Solomon, in early versions of the Bible was the Song of Songs. Only later was it named for Solomon.
The only proven historical figure that matches the characteristics of Solomon the Great was Suleiman the Magnificent. There is a very close match. Suleiman's temple is still in use.
The question is also complicated by the modern use of the term Demon. Daimon (δαίμων) is an Ancient Greek word referring to lesser supernatural beings, including minor gods and the spirits of dead heroes.
And we are told "Demon Deus inversus est" Demon is the inverse of God. This implies that demons have a natural and necessary function - the out-breath that is necessary for the in-breath to occur.
In Masonic symbolism the temple of Solomon built without metals is used to represent the soul. The lack of archeological support for the OT is irrelevant to the symbolism.
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 15, 2017 7:37:13 GMT
> now it seems like that the more I seek, I get one answers and three questions? so that rituals does nit even tell the actual meaning, it is more like everyone get the meaning that fits for them? Symbolism is not like a dictionary. A symbol has a certain meaning in a certain context. Freemasonry is one of these contexts. Of course there is a certain meaning, but FM is not going to tell you what meaning needs to be yours. Solomon, for example, in FM is the master builder of a temple. He employs personnel that see to it that the building is constructed. It doesn't get much more exciting than that, but the overall story, and especially its details, have many layers. Therefor it can happen that in the context of the first degree, a certain piece of symbolism has a different meaning than in the second or third degree. Solomon himself is one of these 'shifting symbols'. The Masonic way of working makes a good method of working with symbols and even though most come from the Bible, the meaning the symbols give you, needs by no way to be Biblical. > if there was a certain meaning of a one symbol, it would have already been revealed. Yes and no. Online and in books you can find many meanings to many symbols from Freemasonry, but once you experience the actual context of the symbol, you will learn that just saying 'the all-seeing eye represents God' is way too simple. Like I said, symbolism is not a dictionary with an image and a fixed explanation.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 15, 2017 12:38:38 GMT
>what do you think Solomon was? This question is complicated by the alleged age of the Old Testament and by the lack of any archeological evidence for Solomon. For example the Song of Solomon, in early versions of the Bible was the Song of Songs. Only later was it named for Solomon. The only proven historical figure that matches the characteristics of Solomon the Great was Suleiman the Magnificent. There is a very close match. Suleiman's temple is still in use. The question is also complicated by the modern use of the term Demon. Daimon (δαίμων) is an Ancient Greek word referring to lesser supernatural beings, including minor gods and the spirits of dead heroes. And we are told "Demon Deus inversus est" Demon is the inverse of God. This implies that demons have a natural and necessary function - the out-breath that is necessary for the in-breath to occur. In Masonic symbolism the temple of Solomon built without metals is used to represent the soul. The lack of archeological support for the OT is irrelevant to the symbolism. Yes, I am not looking proofs of the subject, just thinking the masonic view and legends. But there were many interpretations about solomon and demons, and can I ask, how do you personally think it was? Was the legend of solomon known as Demon haunter, or was it just translation issues?
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