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Post by wiclas on Aug 15, 2017 12:47:21 GMT
> now it seems like that the more I seek, I get one answers and three questions? so that rituals does nit even tell the actual meaning, it is more like everyone get the meaning that fits for them? Symbolism is not like a dictionary. A symbol has a certain meaning in a certain context. Freemasonry is one of these contexts. Of course there is a certain meaning, but FM is not going to tell you what meaning needs to be yours. Solomon, for example, in FM is the master builder of a temple. He employs personnel that see to it that the building is constructed. It doesn't get much more exciting than that, but the overall story, and especially its details, have many layers. Therefor it can happen that in the context of the first degree, a certain piece of symbolism has a different meaning than in the second or third degree. Solomon himself is one of these 'shifting symbols'. The Masonic way of working makes a good method of working with symbols and even though most come from the Bible, the meaning the symbols give you, needs by no way to be Biblical. > if there was a certain meaning of a one symbol, it would have already been revealed. Yes and no. Online and in books you can find many meanings to many symbols from Freemasonry, but once you experience the actual context of the symbol, you will learn that just saying 'the all-seeing eye represents God' is way too simple. Like I said, symbolism is not a dictionary with an image and a fixed explanation. How close freemasonry is to christianity? I was an atheist, and I do not really know much about spiritual texts as bible etc.. nowadays I do believe at least higher power and something other spiritual things, but I am not a big fan of christianity. Do masons need to learn a lots of that religion or is masonry far away from it? Masonry itself seems to me very exciting and learning mysteries fits for me, and if I need to read things close to christianity, it is okay, but are they close to it? And there is different kinds of masonry, as has been said earlier, can you tell me the connection between masonry and usual spirituality? Thanks
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 15, 2017 13:20:12 GMT
> How close freemasonry is to christianity? There is another question which cannot be answer in a general sense. In Scandinavia the "regular" lodges require you to be Christian, but I don't know if this "Swedish Rite" is also practices in Finland. Most lodges, even in very Christian/conservative countries such as the USA or the UK you don't have to be Christian, but you do have to believe that there is 'something higher' (and in some lodges in the 'immortality of the soul'). Usually it all isn't very difficult, especially not in mixed gender organisations, but you have to ask yourself is swearing an oath on the Bible and working with Biblical symbolism is a problem for you. Even if it is, there can be lodges fit for you, but I don't know if such atheistic lodges are active in Finland.
> Do masons need to learn a lots of that religion or is masonry far away from it? Not in most lodges, it is only that some symbolism from the Bible is used (party, I might add). There are lodges which use prayers, but especially in mixed gender lodges the wordings are very general to not offend anybody of any persuasion.
> And there is different kinds of masonry, as has been said earlier, can you tell me the connection between masonry and usual spirituality? There is none, not in general that is. There are lodges that are very Theosophistic, but I think even those do not require you to be a Theosophist nowadays. For the rest, a lodge consists of many different people from a variety of background, each with his/her own spirituality. My lodge has very down-to-earth members, practicing Reikis, Catholics and I myself am more on a Germanic heathen path. We do the same rituals together, talk about the same details, but it all will have different meanings for each of us in the end.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 15, 2017 21:57:52 GMT
> How close freemasonry is to christianity? There is another question which cannot be answer in a general sense. In Scandinavia the "regular" lodges require you to be Christian, but I don't know if this "Swedish Rite" is also practices in Finland. Most lodges, even in very Christian/conservative countries such as the USA or the UK you don't have to be Christian, but you do have to believe that there is 'something higher' (and in some lodges in the 'immortality of the soul'). Usually it all isn't very difficult, especially not in mixed gender organisations, but you have to ask yourself is swearing an oath on the Bible and working with Biblical symbolism is a problem for you. Even if it is, there can be lodges fit for you, but I don't know if such atheistic lodges are active in Finland. > Do masons need to learn a lots of that religion or is masonry far away from it? Not in most lodges, it is only that some symbolism from the Bible is used (party, I might add). There are lodges which use prayers, but especially in mixed gender lodges the wordings are very general to not offend anybody of any persuasion. > And there is different kinds of masonry, as has been said earlier, can you tell me the connection between masonry and usual spirituality? There is none, not in general that is. There are lodges that are very Theosophistic, but I think even those do not require you to be a Theosophist nowadays. For the rest, a lodge consists of many different people from a variety of background, each with his/her own spirituality. My lodge has very down-to-earth members, practicing Reikis, Catholics and I myself am more on a Germanic heathen path. We do the same rituals together, talk about the same details, but it all will have different meanings for each of us in the end. Good, because I am not a fan of dogma and religions, even I like to study all of them. So masons only believe in something higher and some cases immortal soul, and these are close to my spiritual views as well. And something higher can even be leading force, and as some masons has said, the great architect of the universe, not necessarily a christian god. So you at least make one stone, do you create a catedral there or where do you put your stones? And I see that one of the freemasons' secrets is the way how they build churches etc.. and I see, that you learn these secrets as well? Does a golden ratio play their part in freemasonry? I see that at least the great archtector use this when it is creating our nature
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Post by peter2 on Aug 15, 2017 22:57:34 GMT
>one of the freemasons' secrets is the way how they build churches etc..
You are quite correct that the building and placement of spiritually facilitating structures upon a spiritually managed landscape is part of the genuine secrets of Freemasonry. Since 1717 it has been up to the individual brethren to pursue those. They are not taught in mainstream lodges although fragments may be perceived in the ritual.
Feng Shui is another approach to that section of the secrets of spiritual science.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 16, 2017 5:41:34 GMT
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Tuomiokirkko_Oulu.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Rantakatu_4_Oulu_20150214.jpgHere is church of my town, and another picture. I am not sure does these have anything to do with freemasonry, but people used golden ratios etc.. when they build these strucktures, and I heard, that in masonry, one secret was that big stone in the middle of the doorway, that made big doorways possible. In this picture it might not carry weight, but in big cathedrals in middle europe you see a lots of big central stones in windows etc.. Do you have a word of this masonry? The church was build in 1777 and rebuild in the 1800s, isn't that the time when freemasonry spread trought the europe?
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Post by wiclas on Aug 16, 2017 5:43:18 GMT
>one of the freemasons' secrets is the way how they build churches etc.. You are quite correct that the building and placement of spiritually facilitating structures upon a spiritually managed landscape is part of the genuine secrets of Freemasonry. Since 1717 it has been up to the individual brethren to pursue those. They are not taught in mainstream lodges although fragments may be perceived in the ritual. Feng Shui is another approach to that section of the secrets of spiritual science. Just quoting, see the post above
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 16, 2017 7:30:22 GMT
> So masons only believe in something higher and some cases immortal soul And in some cases you're required to be Christian. It appears that the Grand Lodge of Sweden is also active in Finland, but I don't know if Finland has other, non-Christian, Grand Lodges too. I doubt that Le Droit Humain in Finland requires Christianity though.
> So you at least make one stone, do you create a catedral there or where do you put your stones? Symbolism. The stone you work on is your self, the temple you build on is the temple of humanity. A stone needs to be perfect to fit into a wall, hence a Mason needs to be a good person to fit in society. There is no actual building, just symbolic working on a building.
> And I see that one of the freemasons' secrets is the way how they build churches etc.. Not really. A part of the symbolism is taken from building guilds, but, like I said, it is not like Freemasons build or even learn how to.
> Does a golden ratio play their part in freemasonry? Again, only symbolically, because geometry is part of the symbolism. But again, Freemasons do not learn to apply or even find the golden ratio.
> Here is church of my town, and another picture. I am not sure does these have anything to do with freemasonry Not obviously at least and remember, the Cathedrals weren't built by Freemasons the way we use that term today. They were actual builders "operatives" as they are sometimes called, from around 1717 there were people who only used the symbolism ("speculative"). There is no "operative" side to contemporary Freemasonry.
> Do you have a word of this masonry? The church was build in 1777 and rebuild in the 1800s As with other elements / symbolism of the "operative" period, the "captive stone" is a part of Masonic symbolism. Not in the first three degrees though.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 16, 2017 8:06:27 GMT
> So masons only believe in something higher and some cases immortal soul And in some cases you're required to be Christian. It appears that the Grand Lodge of Sweden is also active in Finland, but I don't know if Finland has other, non-Christian, Grand Lodges too. I doubt that Le Droit Humain in Finland requires Christianity though. > So you at least make one stone, do you create a catedral there or where do you put your stones? Symbolism. The stone you work on is your self, the temple you build on is the temple of humanity. A stone needs to be perfect to fit into a wall, hence a Mason needs to be a good person to fit in society. There is no actual building, just symbolic working on a building. > And I see that one of the freemasons' secrets is the way how they build churches etc.. Not really. A part of the symbolism is taken from building guilds, but, like I said, it is not like Freemasons build or even learn how to. > Does a golden ratio play their part in freemasonry? Again, only symbolically, because geometry is part of the symbolism. But again, Freemasons do not learn to apply or even find the golden ratio. > Here is church of my town, and another picture. I am not sure does these have anything to do with freemasonry Not obviously at least and remember, the Cathedrals weren't built by Freemasons the way we use that term today. They were actual builders "operatives" as they are sometimes called, from around 1717 there were people who only used the symbolism ("speculative"). There is no "operative" side to contemporary Freemasonry. > Do you have a word of this masonry? The church was build in 1777 and rebuild in the 1800s As with other elements / symbolism of the "operative" period, the "captive stone" is a part of Masonic symbolism. Not in the first three degrees though. Luckly I am officially a christian, so requirements are not obstacle, as far as it does not go to far to christianity. Le droit seems okay for me, because it feels more like today (no gender boundaries etc..) and luckly there is le droit humain lodge in my town. Yes, I understand that you do not build anything anymore, that masons had some influence in the 1700s how the buildings was made. But for me it still seems interesting, because you still repeate some construction ideas, even you do not build anything anymore. Lodges itselves are also beautiful and interesting. I like to share a pict of my local lodge, that was on a newspaper. www.kaleva.fi/uutiset/galleriat/oululaisten-vapaamuurareiden-uudet-tilat/7786/962477/Hope you will get that link open. If you wish, you can share picts of your lodges if you are allowed to do so. And tell differencies about them, reveal something about them, I am happy to hear you
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 16, 2017 8:18:13 GMT
That's a pretty building indeed. Does the LDH lodge meet there too?
In the building where my lodge meets, there is a "regular" men-only lodge, us (mixed, not LDH) and some 'higher degrees' that meet less frequently. It appears that there also (used to?) meet some sort of Rosicrucian organisation. It is a tiny building that used to be a bank in a small village. There is just a small cellar, a kitchen and a room downstairs and a 'temple' upstairs that has room for perhaps 40 to 50 people. It is by and far not as pretty as your local lodge :-)
I've (of course) visited other lodges. Most are not too big, some look nice. One time I was in Brussel, Belgium in one of the buildings of the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium (no official meeting of course, just a lecture) and they have some 5 temples in the same building and the large temple was just renovated which was quite amazing, and huge.
Last 'Saint John's I attended a 175 visitor official meeting (of LDH), but it took place in a hotel with a big room that got some Masonic elements for the occasion.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 16, 2017 11:05:03 GMT
That's a pretty building indeed. Does the LDH lodge meet there too? In the building where my lodge meets, there is a "regular" men-only lodge, us (mixed, not LDH) and some 'higher degrees' that meet less frequently. It appears that there also (used to?) meet some sort of Rosicrucian organisation. It is a tiny building that used to be a bank in a small village. There is just a small cellar, a kitchen and a room downstairs and a 'temple' upstairs that has room for perhaps 40 to 50 people. It is by and far not as pretty as your local lodge :-) I've (of course) visited other lodges. Most are not too big, some look nice. One time I was in Brussel, Belgium in one of the buildings of the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium (no official meeting of course, just a lecture) and they have some 5 temples in the same building and the large temple was just renovated which was quite amazing, and huge. Last 'Saint John's I attended a 175 visitor official meeting (of LDH), but it took place in a hotel with a big room that got some Masonic elements for the occasion. I am not sure who uses this new lodge in Oulu. But why to create many places if you can use same lodge with many organisations? I did not knew that rosicrusians are so close to masonry, that they use lodges as this. That is also an interesting organization, and I have been thinking joining them too, but well, freemasonry still feels my thing. Your lodge sounds so freemason just as Dan Brown books, old house, with kitchens etc.. and the basement has freemason lodge. No wonder why some people think that in those lodges has some political power, because they tend to look like a place where secret people organisate, and they have included a lots of famous leaders. But when people realise, what really happens inside these beautifully decoraded lodges, they realise that it has nothing to do with politics. But for me, some lodges really seemed at first as some inside-club meeting places for the rich for doing something out of the eyes of the public I googled a bit of that belgium lodge, and I also saw beautiful aprons. Freemasons totally knew how to invest colourful appearance! How fun it would be someday wear such aprons, even I do not even know the meaning behind them yet. I would spend a day inside the lodge just watching all the objects and aprons, and try to figure their meanings
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 16, 2017 11:42:31 GMT
It's usually a matter of history. The Netherlands have lodges of 250 years and more and the Grand Orient of the Netherlands has long geen the only Masonic organisation. It is very well possible that one city has several lodges, because in the Netherlands they are not as big as in some countries. A little over 100 years ago mixed gender lodges started to emerge and after that more and more organisations (usually split-offs). Most of the time they rent the same buildings as their "regular" counterparts. The relations have not always been good enough for that, but recently this is usually how it goes.
It is not always the case, but sometimes other organisations rent the same buildings. I know one building that is used by a lodge of AMORC. Like I said, the building that my lodge uses, appears to have a tenant that is some other type of Rosicrucian group.
The building that my lodge uses is nothing special. It's just a tiny building that was made convenient to use as a lodge-building. There's usually a kitchen, because dining is often part of the evening. The room downstairs can be used for dining or informal gatherings. Nothing 'political power' there, we're just a small society meeting twice a month. The building is no secret either. One day a year virtually every lodge-building in the Netherlands is open to the public and most of them are recognisable from the outside. Nothing mysterious about it all, just that we don't say what we do exactly to not ruin the surprise of prospective members.
I doubt you've found the Belgian lodge building I visited. It isn't very fancy on the outside either, just a concrete wall with a small door. In Belgium Freemasonry is much much bigger than in the Netherlands and has a much richer past (but also a much more active anti-Masonic current). The most famous Belgian temple is the Egyptian temple at the Lakensestraat in Brussel. I've never been there myself, you can't just walk in there or do a tour such as in some building in the UK or the USA, but also this one is open to the public every now and then.
The symbols of Freemasonry mostly only have a meaning in their context. You can find many images of tracing boards online and are probably easily able to say which one belongs to which degree, but the symbols on them have a much more specific meaning within the ritual. And yet you can give them your own meaning......... :-)
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Post by wiclas on Aug 17, 2017 10:06:21 GMT
It's usually a matter of history. The Netherlands have lodges of 250 years and more and the Grand Orient of the Netherlands has long geen the only Masonic organisation. It is very well possible that one city has several lodges, because in the Netherlands they are not as big as in some countries. A little over 100 years ago mixed gender lodges started to emerge and after that more and more organisations (usually split-offs). Most of the time they rent the same buildings as their "regular" counterparts. The relations have not always been good enough for that, but recently this is usually how it goes. It is not always the case, but sometimes other organisations rent the same buildings. I know one building that is used by a lodge of AMORC. Like I said, the building that my lodge uses, appears to have a tenant that is some other type of Rosicrucian group. The building that my lodge uses is nothing special. It's just a tiny building that was made convenient to use as a lodge-building. There's usually a kitchen, because dining is often part of the evening. The room downstairs can be used for dining or informal gatherings. Nothing 'political power' there, we're just a small society meeting twice a month. The building is no secret either. One day a year virtually every lodge-building in the Netherlands is open to the public and most of them are recognisable from the outside. Nothing mysterious about it all, just that we don't say what we do exactly to not ruin the surprise of prospective members. I doubt you've found the Belgian lodge building I visited. It isn't very fancy on the outside either, just a concrete wall with a small door. In Belgium Freemasonry is much much bigger than in the Netherlands and has a much richer past (but also a much more active anti-Masonic current). The most famous Belgian temple is the Egyptian temple at the Lakensestraat in Brussel. I've never been there myself, you can't just walk in there or do a tour such as in some building in the UK or the USA, but also this one is open to the public every now and then. The symbols of Freemasonry mostly only have a meaning in their context. You can find many images of tracing boards online and are probably easily able to say which one belongs to which degree, but the symbols on them have a much more specific meaning within the ritual. And yet you can give them your own meaning......... :-) What common does rosicrusians / amorc have with masons? Do they use rituals too? Is it only that, freemasons do not talk these thing so much to the public? So you create speech/lectures and sometimes written works? Do I have to achieve first, initiation degree before I can come to listen what do you talk there? Or were you a member for a while before first degree?
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 17, 2017 10:32:07 GMT
Compare the situation with that of Thoth or Hermes. All kinds of things have been ascribed to them, or the other way around, their names are connected to a variety of subject. The Solomon of Freemasonry is mostly based on the stories around the building of his temple in the Bible and in the Bible Solomon did not write Grimoires, so that side of Solomon (or: things connected to the same name), have nothing to do with Freemasonry.
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Post by peter2 on Aug 17, 2017 12:44:50 GMT
>What common does rosicrusians / amorc have with masons?
Both claim to be inheritors of some of the ancient mysteries. Afaik, none of the public groups of Freemasons and Rosicrucians has made much progress in the ancient mysteries but some of the private groups do better. Also some of the native traditions (e.g. shamans and sorcerers) retain limited aspects.
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Roy
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Post by Roy on Aug 17, 2017 13:42:37 GMT
Odd, when I replied I was sure that the last question was about King Solomon!
> What common does rosicrusians / amorc have with masons? There are many different kinds of groups that use the name Rosicrucian and they can be very different. AMORC is roughly like Freemasonry with initiations and degrees (but these can be done by mail too it seems!). A group like Lectorium Rosicrucianum is more of a study group with Protestant-like temple meetings for those who are interested. There are many more, Theosophical, New Age, name it.
> So you create speech/lectures and sometimes written works? That depends on the lodge. In my lodge you hold a lecture after the first and second degree and if it is good enough, you can take the next step. There are also lectures on nights without ritual work to do. These lectures can be of members, but also people from other lodges or outsiders. Written? Not really in my lodge. My order has a newsletter which of course needs content.
> I can come to listen what do you talk there? That also depends on the lodge. There are lodges that have public lectures. My own lodge never does.
> Or were you a member for a while before first degree? Initiation is the receipt of the first degree. The procedure is roughly as follow (of course there may be differences between countries and lodges). You led a lodge know you're interested. You may have (email) contact with a member or perhaps a meet-up. When things get serious, you officially apply. After that (usually) two members of the lodge will visit you at your house (nothing heavy, just a pleasant talk to get to know you a bit). These members make a report of the visit which is voted on in the lodge. When the vote is positive, your application will be sent to all lodges of the order in the country, so in your case, all LDH lodges in Finland. They get some time to send their possible remarks and when that time has passed, the lodge will contact you to let you know the outcome. If it is positive, a date for initiation will be scheduled. The whole procedure, in my case, took half a year. Patience is a virtue! So far you have only (virtually) met two or three members of the lodge. Only during your initiation you will meet de rest. After that day, the real work can begin :-)
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Post by wiclas on Aug 17, 2017 18:58:01 GMT
Compare the situation with that of Thoth or Hermes. All kinds of things have been ascribed to them, or the other way around, their names are connected to a variety of subject. The Solomon of Freemasonry is mostly based on the stories around the building of his temple in the Bible and in the Bible Solomon did not write Grimoires, so that side of Solomon (or: things connected to the same name), have nothing to do with Freemasonry. Who invented freemasonry? Where do rituals come from? Was they alive in some from in egypt & bible times, and only continued trought generations, or did some groups developed them when they read ancient text somewhere in 1500 - 1600s? Solomon did not write the rituals, but rituals are based on the Solomon? Is Solomon a man or a god in those rituals?
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Post by wiclas on Aug 17, 2017 19:07:42 GMT
>What common does rosicrusians / amorc have with masons? Both claim to be inheritors of some of the ancient mysteries. Afaik, none of the public groups of Freemasons and Rosicrucians has made much progress in the ancient mysteries but some of the private groups do better. Also some of the native traditions (e.g. shamans and sorcerers) retain limited aspects. Sometimes I feel as Freemasonry should be more open, so people would more easily get why do they exist. I don't know much about what freemasons do, or believe, but if it is close to Amorc, it feels so close to my own belief systems. Sometimes it feels difficult to join in some organisation, that does not tell a single thing in public. Thank you both by the way for answering my questions, it helps me a lot
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Post by peter2 on Aug 17, 2017 21:52:09 GMT
>Who invented freemasonry? Where do rituals come from? Here is the earliest Masonic depiction that I have found. It is the founders of China with square and compasses, sun, moon and stars, in an embrace that is reflected in the Master Mason ritual Mainstream Masonic ritual (particularly Scottish) retains elements of ancient Egyptian ritual and rather a lot from Mithraic ritual. Masonic ritual gained significant Jewish and Christian overlays. The Deist forms of the 18th century reduced the Christian content particularly in the craft degrees - still however leaving much of the Jewish overlay in place. Other influences can be found in the rituals as various groups concealed themselves within Masonry.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 18, 2017 5:46:23 GMT
>Who invented freemasonry? Where do rituals come from? Here is the earliest Masonic depiction that I have found. It is the founders of China with square and compasses, sun, moon and stars, in an embrace that is reflected in the Master Mason ritual Mainstream Masonic ritual (particularly Scottish) retains elements of ancient Egyptian ritual and rather a lot from Mithraic ritual. Masonic ritual gained significant Jewish and Christian overlays. The Deist forms of the 18th century reduced the Christian content particularly in the craft degrees - still however leaving much of the Jewish overlay in place. Other influences can be found in the rituals as various groups concealed themselves within Masonry. Yes, I definitely have to say, that freemasonry is an ancient invention, at least rituals come from ancient times, only perhaps changed a bit. But if you can point out that many similarities, I believe, that they used these for the same purpose. Is it a good ritual? if the ritual and events, that occur in the lodge was a movie, how would you rate it? I bet it is a pretty influental and philosophical, otherwise it would not last that long from ancient times to today.
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Post by peter2 on Aug 18, 2017 6:21:55 GMT
>Is it a good ritual? It is moderately good - indeed one source wrote 70 years ago "it is as well that Masons do not know how to work their rituals effectively". This was indicating that the brethren were not suited to the full working. It is my sense that over the last 30 years the patronage from on high has diminished so that the ritual is less effective than it was. This presumably is leading to the demise of the current outer form of Freemasonry and allowing space perhaps for migration of the practitioners of Masonic Science into a new body. >I bet it is a pretty influental and philosophical Many years ago I was quite keen on the opera The Rheingold. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_RheingoldThis opera is based on spiritual energies hidden in the Rhine. So as I drove towards the Rhine I was interested that I could sense the spiritual energies from many miles away. When I arrived at the banks of the river there was no energy at all that I could sense. The same happens with Freemasonry. From outside the magnetism is obvious but inside the lodges it is hard to find. What is going on?
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