Roy
Member
Posts: 31
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Post by Roy on Aug 18, 2017 7:06:30 GMT
> Who invented freemasonry? There's different theories. The most common is that is developed from "operative" builders guilds that started to recruit non-operative people (who didn't perform the craft itself) and in time they got the upper hand in numbers. My guess is that a group of people came together to form an organisation. They were (rather) well versed in different forms of initiation and from these elements they created their own form.
> Where do rituals come from? They were written around 1700. That is not to say that they don't go back on older sources, but personally I don't believe that these rituals were taken unchanged from a pre-Masonic organisation. They were compiled so to say.
Besides, don't remember that there are many, many different rituals and many, many different systems, especially in the 'higher degrees'. Just after 1717 there were only two degrees and the third one was developed later. Only that is an indication that they aren't continuations of something that was already there.
> Solomon did not write the rituals, but rituals are based on the Solomon? Solomon may not even have been a historical character, but would that really matter? If Jesus never lived, or what we know as Jesus is a 'compilation of the lives of different people', would that make Christianity less valid? The Biblical story around Solomon is the red thread of the rituals of the first three degrees of Freemasonry, but I don't think much more should be made it this.
> Is Solomon a man or a god in those rituals? A man. He doesn't play a big part either.
> Sometimes I feel as Freemasonry should be more open Many branches are very open. See how many websites with sometimes good information there are, how many fora, facebook groups and whatnot. In the Netherlands all buildings are opened to the public at least one weekend per year. In many other countries you can do tours in large and famous buildings. There are musea. Plenty of books (many bad ones). How more open do you want it?
> if it is close to Amorc Wait wait wait, I said Amorc works in a similar way and sometimes an Amorc lodge rents its space from a Masonic lodge and undoubtedly there are people who are members of both organisations, but that is as close as it gets.
> Is it a good ritual? Like I said, the rituals differ. Even though roughly the same, the differences may be substantial. Personally I'm not fond of lodges that use no Bible and Grand Architect, but there are such lodges. The Theosophical ritual is not my thing either, but I enjoy visiting such a lodge every once a while.
What is more, the performance of rituals differ. You can join an inexperienced lodge where the rituals are performed not too well or a lodge with seasoned members who have performed the rituals hundreds of times. One lodge may be very good with timing music. Another lodge mostly cares about the drinking part after the ritual part.
On a more general note, the rituals grows on you. The more you experience or perform the rituals, pieces of the puzzle start to 'move around' and gives you new ideas on either the ritual itself or something completely different. When you think about the rituals, the symbolic connections made, references to all sort of esoteric systems, you can only conclude that they are well written. BUT, the rituals always tend to get 'modernized' by members of 'ritual commissions' and changes are not always to the positive.
> [Peter2] The same happens with Freemasonry. From outside the magnetism is obvious but inside the lodges it is hard to find. Of course I don't know your lodge, but I don't know any Freemasons who look at things, let alone experience, this way. It makes me think of the description of Leadbeater of 'his' incense ceremony during the opening of the lodge. Personally I'm on a much more rational level I suppose :-)
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Post by peter2 on Aug 18, 2017 20:47:50 GMT
>I don't know any Freemasons who look at things, let alone experience, this way
I see EAs that experience this all the time. They are so keen to be initiated but once they are in they cannot find what attracted them and are all gone by the time of their raising.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 19, 2017 19:45:07 GMT
>Is it a good ritual? It is moderately good - indeed one source wrote 70 years ago "it is as well that Masons do not know how to work their rituals effectively". This was indicating that the brethren were not suited to the full working. It is my sense that over the last 30 years the patronage from on high has diminished so that the ritual is less effective than it was. This presumably is leading to the demise of the current outer form of Freemasonry and allowing space perhaps for migration of the practitioners of Masonic Science into a new body. >I bet it is a pretty influental and philosophical Many years ago I was quite keen on the opera The Rheingold. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_RheingoldThis opera is based on spiritual energies hidden in the Rhine. So as I drove towards the Rhine I was interested that I could sense the spiritual energies from many miles away. When I arrived at the banks of the river there was no energy at all that I could sense. The same happens with Freemasonry. From outside the magnetism is obvious but inside the lodges it is hard to find. What is going on? Do freemasons talk about higher energies etc.? I have sometimes similar issues when I am dealing with something. I feel this kind of spiritual flame when I am thinking something, but when I actually do something, the flame has disappeared. Perhaps the picture in my head of something is greater than the thing itself. I am afraid, that this could happen the masonry too, what if this mystery-thing is what pulls me there, what if I find rituals just boring? Perhaps I only can know it by trying it. It can be, that I am so interested in this thing that I spend decades there succeeding many degrees, or I just do the three and get bored. That is why I want to know more about it. Okay, I am not saying that they are secret that much, but e.g. amorc clearly tells, what one learn in every degree, and even reveal, that rosicrusianism is about self-development, that helps you to realise, that you have the access to that higher power, you will start to recognise how to use it etc.. if masonry is about self development, has it created for similar purposes? Helps to find god, think about our universe's nature, higher power or anything, that is even close to that idea? Freemasons do believe in god in some sort, so do your rituals helps people to enchange their beliefs or..?
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Post by wiclas on Aug 19, 2017 19:57:19 GMT
So a general question for freemasons:
Is it about to raise your morale, that you just believe that doing good things gives you a good life and good feelings, or do you actualy believe, that something bigger shows you the way, and by that you can "choose your path" on earth?
Esoterism is close to masonry, and I am just curious, that do masons practise something as these when doing their rituals? Do you use the higher power so to speak?
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Post by peter2 on Aug 19, 2017 20:59:31 GMT
>Do freemasons talk about higher energies etc.?
Very few do. Most belong for ritual and socializing with the brethren.
>Perhaps the picture in my head of something is greater than the thing itself. I am afraid, that this could happen the masonry too,
The Divine Plan is usually much greater than the related human manifestations.
>what if I find rituals just boring
There was a famous economist long ago who said: If an economist's work is not interesting then the economist is not doing it properly.
The same applies in Freemasonry. This is because there is no limit to the depth observable by those that learn to observe.
>that I spend decades there succeeding many degrees
Many brethren do just that, filling their lives with the many side degrees and orders, in the hope that the next degree will give them the secrets. The genuine secrets however are only discovered by worthy brethren that work very hard at the spiritual science concealed by the rituals.
I should note that the rituals have been written and modified by brethren that admit to not having the genuine secrets. It is beyond my understanding that they should feel entitled to change the ritual - but they do.
>rosicrusianism is about self-development, that helps you to realise, that you have the access to that higher power
AMORC is much better in that respect - although I found the monographs somewhat pedestrian.
>if masonry is about self development
Self-development is the first entry price to operating in the temple that extends from East to West and North to South and from the center of the Earth to the Heavens. There are further entry prices.
> so do your rituals helps people to enchange their beliefs
I have known some brethren that reported that their lives changed greatly in the few years after initiation into Masonry.
>something bigger shows you the way, and by that you can "choose your path" on earth?
Some brethren have these experiences but they not usually a matter for discussion.
Masonic lodges usually concentrate on getting the ritual right and preparing for the next candidate.
>Do you use the higher power so to speak?
Very few brethren do any more than recite the ritual.
When I rejoined Masonry, I spoke to the secretaries of perhaps 6 lodges before I found one that read the same books as I did, so I joined that lodge and am still there. It is a very harmonious lodge but I am the only one that pursues Masonic Science.
Long ago a friend in AMORC dreamed that her lodge was a soup kitchen - many came for soup but few wanted to know how it was made. I left the lodge about that time.
A year or so later another friend in that lodge dreamed that she went up stairs into the temple and folded up the temple, put it on her back and took it away. She left the country not long after.
In Masonic temples on a couple of occasions I have seen a point of light appear in the center of the room when the ritual commenced. The point of light unfolded to become a pavement filling the temple. When the ritual closed the pavement folded up to a point of light that disappeared.
It has been a long time since I have seen that.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 20, 2017 19:54:25 GMT
>Do freemasons talk about higher energies etc.? Very few do. Most belong for ritual and socializing with the brethren. >Perhaps the picture in my head of something is greater than the thing itself. I am afraid, that this could happen the masonry too, The Divine Plan is usually much greater than the related human manifestations. >what if I find rituals just boring There was a famous economist long ago who said: If an economist's work is not interesting then the economist is not doing it properly. The same applies in Freemasonry. This is because there is no limit to the depth observable by those that learn to observe. >that I spend decades there succeeding many degrees Many brethren do just that, filling their lives with the many side degrees and orders, in the hope that the next degree will give them the secrets. The genuine secrets however are only discovered by worthy brethren that work very hard at the spiritual science concealed by the rituals. I should note that the rituals have been written and modified by brethren that admit to not having the genuine secrets. It is beyond my understanding that they should feel entitled to change the ritual - but they do. >rosicrusianism is about self-development, that helps you to realise, that you have the access to that higher power AMORC is much better in that respect - although I found the monographs somewhat pedestrian. >if masonry is about self development Self-development is the first entry price to operating in the temple that extends from East to West and North to South and from the center of the Earth to the Heavens. There are further entry prices. > so do your rituals helps people to enchange their beliefs I have known some brethren that reported that their lives changed greatly in the few years after initiation into Masonry. >something bigger shows you the way, and by that you can "choose your path" on earth? Some brethren have these experiences but they not usually a matter for discussion. Masonic lodges usually concentrate on getting the ritual right and preparing for the next candidate. >Do you use the higher power so to speak? Very few brethren do any more than recite the ritual. When I rejoined Masonry, I spoke to the secretaries of perhaps 6 lodges before I found one that read the same books as I did, so I joined that lodge and am still there. It is a very harmonious lodge but I am the only one that pursues Masonic Science. Long ago a friend in AMORC dreamed that her lodge was a soup kitchen - many came for soup but few wanted to know how it was made. I left the lodge about that time. A year or so later another friend in that lodge dreamed that she went up stairs into the temple and folded up the temple, put it on her back and took it away. She left the country not long after. In Masonic temples on a couple of occasions I have seen a point of light appear in the center of the room when the ritual commenced. The point of light unfolded to become a pavement filling the temple. When the ritual closed the pavement folded up to a point of light that disappeared. It has been a long time since I have seen that. For me it is still a mystery, why masons do that ritual. Many other kind of groups say, that via their teachings person can connect to god or it has something to do with it. You freemasons seem to me a very much similar people as those other esoteric people, many of you are similar as I am when we search the secrets of life, I am very interested in alternative sciences, mysteries, esoterism, rituals that make us to "shift in to a better world", rituals that cleanes us etc.. but even you all seem to have interested in everything that I said, it seems that ritual itself does not really even have nothing to do with higher powers, gods etc..? Where is the point? I mean, if I do rituals for money, health etc.. I get more money and better health (at least their purposes are to do these), and there is rituals for gaining knowledge, make connection with god etc.. so, why and what for mason ritual has been created? To enchance moral, or...? Of course it can has many meanings, but tell me your view on it, please. I have a feeling, that I need to see at least some big answer on what freemasonry is, before I can join. I am not just sure what my question for it is :/
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Post by wiclas on Aug 20, 2017 19:57:18 GMT
To make my point clearer, I still have a feeling, that I do not know why freemasonry exists, and why should I join? But in the other hand, I feel so much "pull in" that I just can not let it be as it is.
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Post by peter2 on Aug 20, 2017 21:21:09 GMT
> it seems that ritual itself does not really even have nothing to do with higher powers
That is not correct. Even though the brethren do not understand how the ritual operates or why, it often refers to the Sun the Moon and the Stars and to the temple(s) in the heavens and indeed to the officers of those temples.
>I mean, if I do rituals for money, health etc.. I get more money and better health
Passing by worldly possessions including psychic powers is another of the entry prices for the genuine secrets
> why and what for mason ritual has been created? To enhance moral, or...?
As I wrote earlier, morality is the first entry price
>I do not know why freemasonry exists
And neither do most brethren. They believe Freemasonry is a human creation.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 21, 2017 10:48:48 GMT
> it seems that ritual itself does not really even have nothing to do with higher powers That is not correct. Even though the brethren do not understand how the ritual operates or why, it often refers to the Sun the Moon and the Stars and to the temple(s) in the heavens and indeed to the officers of those temples. >I mean, if I do rituals for money, health etc.. I get more money and better health Passing by worldly possessions including psychic powers is another of the entry prices for the genuine secrets > why and what for mason ritual has been created? To enhance moral, or...? As I wrote earlier, morality is the first entry price >I do not know why freemasonry exists And neither do most brethren. They believe Freemasonry is a human creation. Okay, thank you for opening a bit this ritual purpose thing. I do believe, that every ability can be learn, if one really wishes to learn something, but usually certain abilities do not serve us in any way. So the secrets of freemasonry are also learning how to deal with god-like abilities? "Passing by worldly possessions including psychic powers is another of the entry prices for the genuine secrets" Can you please open this sentence a bit more. I have to say, that it can be my english, but I do not fully understand the sentence.
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Post by peter2 on Aug 21, 2017 11:48:30 GMT
>So the secrets of freemasonry are also learning how to deal with god-like abilities
There is a difference between the secret recognition modes that Freemasons use (the secrets) and the genuine secrets of Freemasonry.
Acquisition and use of the genuine secrets requires development of transcendental abilities - but mainstream Freemasonry only provides elementary assistance.
>Passing by worldly possessions including psychic powers
Acceptance into the inner worlds requires relinquishing much of what the world regards as important. Since our God is a God of Love the inner worlds operate upon right relationship. Those seeking to have more than their share and to acquire power are necessarily not in right relationship and Nature does not deal so nicely with them.
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Roy
Member
Posts: 31
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Post by Roy on Aug 21, 2017 13:32:45 GMT
Back from a weekend without much internet, but I see I'm starting to fall behind here :-)
An anecdote that may shed some light on things. When my girlfriend expressed interest in Freemasonry, we thought that that means: Le Droit Humain and that Le Droit Humain is an atheistic organisation. Even though we are not Christian, we wouldn't join a lodge that does not use a Bible (or preferably another book) and a Grand Architect. We were wrong on both accounts. In my country there is more mixed gender Freemasonry than LDH and most lodges do use a Bible, etc. The organisation that we joined has lodges that work with a ritual that we call "French". It is based on the atheistic ritual that Georges Martin wrote when he started with LDH. I have experienced this "French" ritual a few times. It is interesting to see the similarities and differences to the rituals of my own lodge, but I'm glad that my own lodge is "Scottish", but that I still can attend "French" meetings (just as an occasional "English" (Theosophical) meeting is interesting).
Now there are atheistic / "secular" Freemasons who still love their rituals and who sometimes even call them "spiritual" without believing in anything higher. I guess the bottom line is: Masonic ritual is general enough for a variety of people to enjoy its rituals and each on his/her own 'level', but specific enough to make them different from other sorts of rituals. Atheists probably don't go to church, but they do become Freemasons.
So why do we perform rituals? The structure and 'otherworldlessness' make it that many people see it as a break in their daily lives, a point of rest, so to say. What they get out of it 'spiritually' is different for everybody. The rituals certainly are not occult rites to evoke powers or anything, but a system of symbols that everybody gets out what fits him/her. Just raising morality should not be of FM in my opinion, but if others are happy with that, so be it. Hopefully everybody will find the best fitting lodge in the end, but a fact is that looking for a fitting lodge is easier when you are already initiated, because then you can travel and compare and otherwise you will be initiated in a lodge where you will only get to learn its members after.
Masons come in many shades. I know staunch anti religion Masons and people who are more 'spiritually inclined'. Mostly in the "regular" men-only lodges you will find the people who see FM as a social happening. Mixed gender lodges often tend to have more 'spiritual' people. I don't think I know a Mason such as Peter (perhaps one, but our conversations never got so far that I can tell), but it is good that there are people for whom ritual is not just a piece of acting.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 21, 2017 19:47:24 GMT
>So the secrets of freemasonry are also learning how to deal with god-like abilities There is a difference between the secret recognition modes that Freemasons use (the secrets) and the genuine secrets of Freemasonry. Acquisition and use of the genuine secrets requires development of transcendental abilities - but mainstream Freemasonry only provides elementary assistance. >Passing by worldly possessions including psychic powers Acceptance into the inner worlds requires relinquishing much of what the world regards as important. Since our God is a God of Love the inner worlds operate upon right relationship. Those seeking to have more than their share and to acquire power are necessarily not in right relationship and Nature does not deal so nicely with them. Well, I see that too, that one needs to find some kind of universal harmony to something, before he can experience it. Is it love or whatever we wish to call it. And if a man is selfish and taking from others, it is harder to find that harmony, and he usually has experiences, where others acts as he does, they try to get as much of him as he tries to get from others.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 21, 2017 20:00:34 GMT
Back from a weekend without much internet, but I see I'm starting to fall behind here :-) An anecdote that may shed some light on things. When my girlfriend expressed interest in Freemasonry, we thought that that means: Le Droit Humain and that Le Droit Humain is an atheistic organisation. Even though we are not Christian, we wouldn't join a lodge that does not use a Bible (or preferably another book) and a Grand Architect. We were wrong on both accounts. In my country there is more mixed gender Freemasonry than LDH and most lodges do use a Bible, etc. The organisation that we joined has lodges that work with a ritual that we call "French". It is based on the atheistic ritual that Georges Martin wrote when he started with LDH. I have experienced this "French" ritual a few times. It is interesting to see the similarities and differences to the rituals of my own lodge, but I'm glad that my own lodge is "Scottish", but that I still can attend "French" meetings (just as an occasional "English" (Theosophical) meeting is interesting). Now there are atheistic / "secular" Freemasons who still love their rituals and who sometimes even call them "spiritual" without believing in anything higher. I guess the bottom line is: Masonic ritual is general enough for a variety of people to enjoy its rituals and each on his/her own 'level', but specific enough to make them different from other sorts of rituals. Atheists probably don't go to church, but they do become Freemasons. So why do we perform rituals? The structure and 'otherworldlessness' make it that many people see it as a break in their daily lives, a point of rest, so to say. What they get out of it 'spiritually' is different for everybody. The rituals certainly are not occult rites to evoke powers or anything, but a system of symbols that everybody gets out what fits him/her. Just raising morality should not be of FM in my opinion, but if others are happy with that, so be it. Hopefully everybody will find the best fitting lodge in the end, but a fact is that looking for a fitting lodge is easier when you are already initiated, because then you can travel and compare and otherwise you will be initiated in a lodge where you will only get to learn its members after. Masons come in many shades. I know staunch anti religion Masons and people who are more 'spiritually inclined'. Mostly in the "regular" men-only lodges you will find the people who see FM as a social happening. Mixed gender lodges often tend to have more 'spiritual' people. I don't think I know a Mason such as Peter (perhaps one, but our conversations never got so far that I can tell), but it is good that there are people for whom ritual is not just a piece of acting. I have to say now, that in Finland, atheism is more common than being religious at least in everyday life. I even see myself closer to atheism than a religious person. My view is, that everyone creates their own reality, and can choose what reality to observe. I had some kind of enlightenment time in 2013, before that I was very strongly an atheistic. I like the idea of an organisation, that holds different people in it. Even we both are some sort of spiritual beings, our sense of god is pretty much different, perhaps because of our backgrounds. One thing what I do not quite get about some religious people is that they do believe in god, but they do not "use" god for anything. Or they do not believe, that god can help them, even they believe him/it/her. And I wonder something similar with rituals too, what is the point of doing rituals, if someone do not believe, that anything higher is behind it? Some can think me a bit different, but I do see, that doing something and we put our fate on it, it really changes the universe around us, and that kinds of things pulls me to rituals as you do in lodges. If something truly changes your views on worlds, it changes the world. How do you see the world is operating? Do you believe, that focus is a strong tool to achieving something in life?
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Post by peter2 on Aug 21, 2017 20:35:34 GMT
As I understand the use of the terms a Deist is an Atheist.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 22, 2017 5:36:24 GMT
As I understand the use of the terms a Deist is an Atheist. Isn't the deist one, who believes in god? Wikipedia told, that deist do believe god, but god does not affect really on world? "...philosophical position which posits that a god does not interfere directly with the world. " -wiki I only thought that Deism is just believing god, I did not know so specifically. But does that matter, do the god exist, if it does not affect us anyway? Getting a bit out of Freemasonry, but I was just wondering different religious views here.
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Post by peter2 on Aug 22, 2017 6:02:38 GMT
In my view a Theist is someone that follows a personal god - Jehovah, Odin, Jesus etc. A Theist has someone to pray to.
A Deist may think in terms of Spirit or The Force or Destiny or perhaps the Great Architect and so the Deist seems to me not usually in a position to ask for special favors from on high.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 22, 2017 6:45:33 GMT
In my view a Theist is someone that follows a personal god - Jehovah, Odin, Jesus etc. A Theist has someone to pray to. A Deist may think in terms of Spirit or The Force or Destiny or perhaps the Great Architect and so the Deist seems to me not usually in a position to ask for special favors from on high. Okay, great to repeat a bit our sights of beliefs. But if one does not believe no supreme being, is he/she an atheist? Well, anyway, I was just wondering, that I have met some religious people, who say they do believe god, but they do not really believe that god could change their lives in any way. That leads me thinking, that if I do a spiritual thing, as a pray or a ritual, I personally do believe that it works. No matter is it a god that hears my work, a Jesus who hears it and helps me, do I shift myself in an alternative dimensional continuum where things happen differently or is it just my own decision to change my behaviour, I still believe it works in some way and changes my path in more positive direction. Have you felt any difference in your life outside a lodge? Have you felt as something higher has directed you in a better direction or something similar? One reason, that pulls me to things as masonry is the will to experience spiritual things, and I have a feeling that rituals could help individuals to achieve them. How do you see it?
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Post by peter2 on Aug 22, 2017 7:33:11 GMT
> if one does not believe no supreme being, is he/she an atheist?
Probably an atheist but not necessarily an a-deist. And there are other ways to approach the concept of a supreme being for the purposes of Freemasonry. The essence is that there is a meaning to Life and hence there is some obligation that we each have to contribute to the meaning or purpose of Life.
Putting the question in the context of a supreme being seems to me unnecessarily cultural and so I have used the question of whether Life has meaning with a candidate that did not believe in God and the candidate did believe that Life has a meaning.
> I still believe it works in some way and changes my path in more positive direction.
Quite true. Existence is intelligent and responds constructively to humans of goodwill. That is why I was careful to make a statement in terms of asking favors from on high rather than from Existence.
> Have you felt as something higher has directed you in a better direction or something similar?
I felt that long before I joined Freemasonry.
>I have a feeling that rituals could help individuals to achieve them.
Properly constructed rituals can bring humans into better relationship with Existence. Rituals that attempt to bind, banish or force aspects of Existence may be seen as hostile.
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Roy
Member
Posts: 31
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Post by Roy on Aug 22, 2017 8:28:03 GMT
> [Wiclas] One thing what I do not quite get about some religious people is that they do believe in god, but they do not "use" god for anything.
Mind that "religious people" come in many shades. A Christian may believe in a (personal) God and pray to him, another prefers to pray to some saint or an angel, because (s)he think God is 'out of reach'. My personal view of God is so abstract that it can't be "used".
> [Wiclas] And I wonder something similar with rituals too, what is the point of doing rituals,
Personally I like the way Mircea Eliade looked at this. One may celebrate a solstice as a repetition of what happend "In Ilo Tempore" (the very beginning so to say) in order to 'connect' to this event in the dawn of time. I have burnt sun-wheels in the shortest night, not because I thought that without my help the sun wouldn't come back and that the days wouldn't lengthen again, but because it is a cosmic event to 'connect to'.
> [Wiclas} [...] if someone do not believe, that anything higher is behind it?
See my last example above. Even if somebody does not believe in Gods or a God, celebrating a solstice can be a meaningfull thing. Freemasons celebrate solstices without the whole notion of what these celebrations meant to people in the old days, but most of them love their "Saints John"s. For one it may just the opening or closing of a working year, or looking back at the past and coming year with the intention of doing better. Step out of the whirlwind of life and focus on the things that matter and that is different for everyone. The nice thing about Freemsonry is that different people come together for the same thing, yet a different thing for everyone.
> [Wiclas] Some can think me a bit different, but I do see, that doing something and we put our fate on it, it really changes the universe around us, and that kinds of things pulls me to rituals as you do in lodges. If something truly changes your views on worlds, it changes the world.
In the best event you change yourself and therefor change the world. There is a Dutch song saying: I replaced a rock in a river, so I changed the world. Freemasonry is about being a better person, so that the world may be a bit of a better place. For one person this will be a thing of morality, for another spiritual development, for the third something else.
> [Peter] In my view a Theist is someone that follows a personal god - Jehovah, Odin, Jesus etc. A Theist has someone to pray to.
I have Odin tattood on my leg (and Tyr on the other side, connected), but Odin isn't 'the Ultimate Divinity' (or himself even an anthropomorphical God, yet I had him depicted anthropomorphically). There are as many shades as there are people and there are not enough tags to tag everyone. I don't think we should.
> [Wiclas] Okay, great to repeat a bit our sights of beliefs. But if one does not believe no supreme being, is he/she an atheist?
Does that even matter? There are Christians who think that Hindus are atheist because they don't (all) believe in one greatest God. I wouldn't call them atheists though. It's a matter of perspective and as long at the explanations work for yourself, it doesn't really matter how somebody else explains these terms.
> [Wiclas] Have you felt any difference in your life outside a lodge? Have you felt as something higher has directed you in a better direction or something similar?
Nope, neither within or without or in another type of ritual. That doens't make them less meaningfull to me though.
> [Wiclas] [...] the will to experience spiritual things
I don't know if that is true, not in general at least. Like I said, there are Freemasons who do not believe in anything and I doubt that a Freemason who is devoutly Christian will go to lodge for spiritual experiences, the church may be a more logical place for that.
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Post by wiclas on Aug 23, 2017 8:20:54 GMT
> if one does not believe no supreme being, is he/she an atheist? Probably an atheist but not necessarily an a-deist. And there are other ways to approach the concept of a supreme being for the purposes of Freemasonry. The essence is that there is a meaning to Life and hence there is some obligation that we each have to contribute to the meaning or purpose of Life. Putting the question in the context of a supreme being seems to me unnecessarily cultural and so I have used the question of whether Life has meaning with a candidate that did not believe in God and the candidate did believe that Life has a meaning. > I still believe it works in some way and changes my path in more positive direction. Quite true. Existence is intelligent and responds constructively to humans of goodwill. That is why I was careful to make a statement in terms of asking favors from on high rather than from Existence. > Have you felt as something higher has directed you in a better direction or something similar? I felt that long before I joined Freemasonry. >I have a feeling that rituals could help individuals to achieve them. Properly constructed rituals can bring humans into better relationship with Existence. Rituals that attempt to bind, banish or force aspects of Existence may be seen as hostile. "...rituals can bring humans in to better relationships with existence" Perfect words there And I agree too that idea of god and how do we see it, it is not that important, I was just repeating terms that we understand each other better. However, I see, that a person with a good morale, health self-esteem usually creates herself/himself a better life, whether something bigger helps or not. I also see, that before you can have a good job, a good wife etc.. you need to be ready for it, otherwise it will not turn that good. My dreams include that one day I will have my own company, and I could employ people, and I see that the best way to make business is to do always what is the right thing to do. If one always follow ethics, never fool anyone and takes care of all the things he needs to care, there is so much higher chance to achieve things in a long run.
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