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Post by whistler on Dec 13, 2004 8:07:23 GMT
Emperor Rudolph I in 1275 authorised an Order of Masons, Pope Nicholass III in 1278 granted a letter of indulgence to the Brotherhood of Stonemasonsat Strasburg, which was renewed until1340. There was the Vienna witnesses of 1412m 1430, 1435. The Strausburg Order of Lodges in 1464 , Torgau 1462 an more orders on to 1500. Vicentius in the "Mirror of the World" in 1480 containds short descriptions of the Severn Liberal Arts and Sciences similar in description to the Masonic Charges. A Book by Veldner in Holland in 1486 is said to contain symbolism of Craft and initiation.
PS Having seen Mr Mason's post on the Poll Thread I have changed this topic's title It would be good if Mr Mason would transfer or copy his post to here.
It is about tracing back the masonic trail Questions: Was there similar Masonic activity in England during that time. Are any of those German Orders still in existance. Would one recongnise the Masonic Ritual from any of them. Did English/Scottish Masonry start up again in 1700's in isolation
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 13, 2004 9:01:36 GMT
Was there similar Masonic activity in England during that time. - Probably - but more than likely only found in the North of England around York or in Scotland Did English/Scottish Masonry start up again in 1700's in isolation - There are masonic documents from before the 1700's showing evidence of freemasonry in parts of England. Scotland has a welath of documentation from pre-1700
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Post by offramp on Dec 13, 2004 15:20:04 GMT
Were these stonemasons or freemasons?
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Post by whistler on Dec 13, 2004 17:01:57 GMT
Were these stonemasons or freemasons? I think they may have been one and the same at the time, they appear to have had Masonic Ritual and Officers Ingo ...Help
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Dec 14, 2004 13:07:58 GMT
I'm sure I have read somewhere that James VI (b.1566 - d.1625) of Scotland was raised prior to becoming James I of England in 1603.
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Post by atarnaris on Dec 14, 2004 22:01:52 GMT
Emperor Rudolph I in 1275 authorised an Order of Masons, Pope Nicholass III in 1278 granted a letter of indulgence to the Brotherhood of Stonemasonsat Strasburg, which was renewed until1340. Why would simple Stone Masons be organised as an Order and call themselves the Brotherhood? Was that thypical of the society back then? Or would that indicate an organization typical of today's Orders...
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Post by mrmason on Dec 15, 2004 7:06:45 GMT
In Scotland pre 1700 many stonemasons and other crafts were certainly organsed into lodges. An example being that in from Aberdeen. The "town" records of 1483 record that an obligation was taken by the "masownys of the ludge"( a total of 6 men altogether), in front of the magistrate and council, to observe an agreement to come amongst themselves. Further records of the same lodge state that "no weapon shall be allowed in the lodge except a knife for bread, and thta no mason should be lent by the master of the kirkwork(the building they were currently working on), or pass out of the lodge on his own initiative to work elswhere. In 1493, 3 masons were engaged for a year to remain and abide in the service of the town, "both in the lodge and outwith" In 1498 there are 2 similar entires in the town records that show that the masons were obligated to do "good service in the lodge and outwith". It is really from around the 1590's that Scottish lodges seem to come out of the woodwork with regards their status and exsistance. In Aberdeen 1590 there is a record of a laird confirmed as having given jurisdiction over the masons of that area. As well as Aitchison's Haven having records from 1598, and Mary's Chapel No1 from 1599. There are also the following, Lodge of Haddington 1599, Dumfremline and Glasgow Lodge 1613, the "Rights of the Sinclairs of Roslin 1627/8" were also signed by a Lodge of Dundee, Kilwinning lodge 1642, Linlithgow and Scone (Perth) in 1650's, Melrose, Canongate and Inverness 1670's, then Dumfries, Canongate and Leith 1680's, and in the 1690's Dunblane, Hamilton, with Kelso,Kirkudbright, Haughfoot, Banff, Kilmolymock and Edinburgh Journeymen on the edge of the 18th century. While these are the dates of the earliest known lodge records it is considered that these lodges were in exsistance long before as none of the records referr to the starting/forming of any lodge. As said before we can go back further to the "Incorporations" that were formed in Scotland. The Masons and Wrights of Edinburgh 1475. Coopers, Wrights and Masons of Aberdeen 1527 and ratified in 1541 to add Carvers, Slaters and Painters. Glasgow 1551. Canongate(Edinburgh) the date is inknown but a list of Deacons and admissions are shown form 1585 with Wrights, Coopers and Masons from 1630. It was however William Schaw in his statutes of 1598/9 that really organised the Scottish lodges into what we would now consider the modern system. The Masons had both Incorporations and Lodges running at the same time. They kept the Incorporations so that they could maintain the advantages from the Burghs but did not want to be completely governed by them so while they sat in their Incorporations in the Burghs many sat in their lodges outwith the Burghs. There was of course in any agreement a bit of give and take, so it was agreed that the Incorporation Deacons could preside in the Lodges in order for the Lodges to be accepted by the councils within the Burghs. As you could imagime this is a long and complicated subject with many records none of which mention the KT
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Dec 15, 2004 7:12:56 GMT
Very informative MrM, Thank you. Is any of this actually documented or have you had to root through lots of different books and sites etc?
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Dec 15, 2004 7:30:12 GMT
Mr Mason, Can i use this short article in my mag for which i will give you full accreditation ??
And of course i will continue to send you a copy
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bod
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Post by bod on Dec 15, 2004 7:53:41 GMT
I'm currently reading 'Invisible College' by Robert Lomas and have been very very enlightened by the chapter covering masonic history - blown away is another way of putting it! It brings out all of what MrMason mentions and gives a bibliography and footnotes too. I don't believe there is one exhaustive tome that details it all, Bro Lomas has done a good job in pulling a lot of info together form disparate sources in this book.
I will get round to writing a book review when I finish it.
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Post by mrmason on Dec 15, 2004 18:19:44 GMT
Staffs, By all means use it, you can amend or add if you want and no recognition is necessary.
Michael, The records regarding Aberdeen is held within the city archives. Most of the lodges that I mentioned have those records in their own lodge minutes and the "Incorporations" are known throughout Scottish history. however I do have an extensive book collection and most hof the information can be found in the following 2 books, The First Freemasons, Scotland's Early Lodges and their Members, ISBN 902324 65 9 The origins of Freemasonry, Scotland's Century 1590-1710, ISBN 0 521 35326 2 Hardback, 0 52139654 9 Paperback. Both are written by David Stevenson, Prof of Scottish History at St Andrews Uni. He is also not a Freemaosn Both books available through our Grand lodge Web Site.
also our GL has it in their notable masonic dates thta James VI of Scotland was initiated into Lodge Scoon and Perth in 1601.
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Post by middlepillar on Dec 15, 2004 22:30:35 GMT
Taken from Waites 'A new Encyclopaedia of freemasonry'
AD 926 Edwin a mythical son of Athelstan, presided over a meeting of masons at York, and certain charges were agreed upon for the goverment of the brotherhood.
1077. A cemetarius, named Robert, employed at St Albans is said to have been the most skillful Mason of his time.
1113. In the days of Odo, Prior of Croyland, a certain lay Brother, named Arnold is termed ' artificiossisimus magister of 'the art of masonry'
1147. The Ancient Stirling lodge claimed to represent the body of masons at work on the construction of Cambies Kenneth Abbey, founded by King David 1st of Scotland, as inferred from a Burgh record of Aberdeen under date of 1483.
1173. The term magister was conferred on William of Sens at a 'consultation' of building artificers summoned to Canterbury, according to Gould, it may have signified Master of the work or Master Mason.
So this is Waites research into the 'beginning of the beginning'.
It goes on from there and it really is lazy mans research but very interesting none the less.
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Michael
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Post by Michael on Dec 16, 2004 7:55:28 GMT
Mr M , again thank you. ISBN numbers and christmas what more could I want Thanks.
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Post by ingo on Dec 16, 2004 15:39:59 GMT
Hm, hm, I am sure that the masons who obtained their charges by Rudolf the emperor were NO freemasons but just stonemasons.
I referr to the concils of the roman-catholic church betwenn 1189 and 1326, where a heretic group of noblemen, clerigymen and wealthy citizens is described who meet outside the cities in castles and have rituals which are not accepted by the church. ALl these guys should habe worn aprons and used symbols of the craft. There is a compendium of the jesuit order from 1717(!) discribing the informations for the concils. I think I need not to mention that the accused were expelled from the holy roman ctholic church...
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