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Post by devoutfreemason on Jun 2, 2007 17:07:18 GMT
Ponder the idea, challenge the mind. Expand, learn, change and grow. That my Brothers is Freemasonry!!! Yes- Thank you Bro. dfm - you point is well made. In reading your post and the following post by Bro Tamrin the thought happened to drop on me from a rather large height - Steel bars or barbed wire do not a prison make. Are we not more imprisoned by the perceptions of our own mind? ... in the lodge where I was initiated the "brothers' may not have had felony convictions but many of them routinley comitted felonies of the soul, that is almost worse.Yes - indeed. Thank you for your timely observations - they are worthy of deeper thought. Thank you Brother. God Bless, BC
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Jun 2, 2007 17:15:14 GMT
We also have the philosophy that we take good men and make them better. There simply has to be some sort of starting point. All of your points seem good, but the man must be good before starting his Masonic journey. A prison is not the place for this There have been cases where men have won the nobel prize after incarciration.Awakening is awakening, change is change. God Bless, BC Nelson Mandella would have made a great Freemason. He just would have not found enough like minded men in prison to make it possible then. A prison is no place for a Masonic lodge
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Post by karlbenjedi on Jun 2, 2007 17:41:51 GMT
On another forum that I am not allowed to post on there was an interesting topic on Masonic Lodges in Prison. While this may sound like a shocking scenerio, many organisations do have prison outreach programs. I know that religious groups like the LDS church for an example. While I do not see how a prison lodge can function (prison library perhaps) I do feel that there are worse things a man (or woman) could be when they exit prison than a Mason ;D Thoughts? BC Dear devoutfreemason, Most here seem to follow their own Grand Lodges rulings on this question,which is fair enough. However, if at some future time I became a prisoner. I would attempt to find like minded masons to form a Lodge. Knowing that no Grand Lodge would recognise us, would mean very little. So we would be forced to form yet another irregular Grand Lodge and life would go on. Fraternally Bro.Karl Lodge of Unity No 71
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Post by devoutfreemason on Jun 2, 2007 18:35:07 GMT
There have been cases where men have won the nobel prize after incarciration.Awakening is awakening, change is change. God Bless, BC Nelson Mandella would have made a great Freemason. He just would have not found enough like minded men in prison to make it possible then. That is pure speculation.
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Jun 2, 2007 19:36:28 GMT
Nelson Mandella would have made a great Freemason. He just would have not found enough like minded men in prison to make it possible then. That is pure speculation. Perhaps. I talked to a friend of mine that works in the correctional facility in this end of our State. He tells me that no one there has won the Nobel.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
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Post by giovanni on Jun 2, 2007 20:51:31 GMT
May I differ?
During the Fascist era, Bro. Domizio Torreggiani, then GOI's Gm was confined in Ponza, an island offshore Campania, Tirreno sea.
There he found some Bren and set up a lodge. He initiated other profanes. They were all political prisoners.
FMy should ask men whither they are going to and not where from they come.
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vtmason
Member
Running Dog Lackey
Posts: 251
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Post by vtmason on Jun 2, 2007 23:35:52 GMT
May I differ? During the Fascist era, Bro. Domizio Torreggiani, then GOI's Gm was confined in Ponza, an island offshore Campania, Tirreno sea. There he found some Bren and set up a lodge. He initiated other profanes. They were all political prisoners. FMy should ask men whither they are going to and not where from they come. I would suggest that perhaps we are speaking of apples and oranges Political prisoners and POWs to me are a bit different than the run of the mill car thief or con man. I looked up a few stats, and they show that especially in the United States, most of our prisons are filled with repeat offenders, not good men
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Tamrin
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Nosce te ipsum
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 3, 2007 0:02:26 GMT
As Freemasons we are or ought to be more prepared to judge the worthiness of our own conduct rather than that our fellow Brethren. Nevertheless, we have standards and judgement of others is sometimes necessary, if only to retain our harmony, focus and reputation. In the case of crimes, we have opted to avoid forming personal opinions, which might be swayed for or against by brotherly love or personal animosity, and have instead chosen, as a benchmark, the decision of the courts.
From my understanding, in my former jurisdiction any conviction for a crime carrying a penalty of more than one month automatically resulted in expulsion from the Order, whether or not the full penalty was imposed or served. Having chosen this as a benchmark to apply to a Brother, it would be inconsistent to ignore it in the case of an applicant who had not yet been admitted to the privileges of membership: Indeed, such membership is very much a privilege not a right. We are, a selective society and not everyone who applies is admitted (arguably, we are not so selective that we meet that legislative criterion of being a ‘private club,’ but that is another matter).
While we should avoid discrimination in matters such as race and gender, it is appropriate for Freemasons to discriminate on criminality, with Freemasonry being a system of morality and not being a reform society. Freemasons do not suggest that the Craft is an exclusive path to intellectual illumination, let alone to spiritual enlightenment. ‘Masonic’ principles are not restricted to Freemasonry and any person excluded or expelled from the Order has many options left open to them. While I would like to see dispensations granted in extreme cases (Nelson Mandela has been suggested), personally, I accept the decision of the courts is usually an appropriate benchmark.
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Post by therondunn on Jun 3, 2007 10:29:00 GMT
Exactly, Br. E. In my jurisdiction, a felon is not qualified to be made a mason. The qualifications are that a man must be a good man, respected in his community. A felon is, by definition, neither. Nelson Mandela was in prison for 25 years? Would you say that he is not a good man, respected in his community and is unfit to be a Mason? God Bless, BC Interesting question, Brad. In the United States, we do not have political prisoners, nor many in prison that have Nobel Peace Prizes. If you can find a man in prison, with a Nobel Peace Prize that wants to be made a mason, you let me know and I will go to bat with my lodge/grand lodge over the issue. Meantime, the majority of felons in the US are in prison because they are NOT good and honorable, decent law abiding men well respected in their communities. Most are dirtbags you wouldn't want to know and certainly not have in lodge with you. A church or a temple or a Mosque would be better suited for these men than a lodge.
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ricardo
Member
Australia
Posts: 161
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Post by ricardo on Jun 6, 2007 4:00:40 GMT
On another forum that I am not allowed to post on there was an interesting topic on Masonic Lodges in Prison. While this may sound like a shocking scenerio, many organisations do have prison outreach programs. I know that religious groups like the LDS church for an example. While I do not see how a prison lodge can function (prison library perhaps) I do feel that there are worse things a man (or woman) could be when they exit prison than a Mason ;D Thoughts? BC Which forum was this?
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Post by parisfred on Jun 11, 2007 0:56:17 GMT
quote In the United States, we do not have political prisoners,Unfortunately its wrong you have political prisoner and your country, as mine by the way, is listed every years by Amnesty international : 2007 report :for the Us : thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Americas/United-States-of-Americafor France : thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Europe-and-Central-Asia/Franceand for Uk : thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Europe-and-Central-Asia/United-Kingdom" Leonard Peltier is an imprisoned Native American considered by Amnesty International, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, National Congress of American Indians, the Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights, Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Rev. Jesse Jackson, amongst many other leaders, organizations and private citizens, to be a political prisoner who should be immediately released. " Leonard Peltier is also considered a political prisoner by several Nobel prize for Peace : Nelson Mandela, Mgr Desmond Tutu, and Rigoberta Menchu,
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Post by therondunn on Jun 11, 2007 3:51:49 GMT
That's nice. However, he faced a trial, evidence was presented, a jury heard the evidence and he was found guilty by a jury of his peers. Then sentenced to prison.
I really don't give a rat's hat what "Amnesty International" has to say about much of anything.
Nor, frankly, the UN.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Jun 11, 2007 7:02:29 GMT
I really don't give a rat's hat what "Amnesty International" has to say about much of anything.
Nor, frankly, the UN. Your opinion is acknowledged and, in like spirit, disregarded.
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jmd
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fourhares.com
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Post by jmd on Jun 11, 2007 7:35:21 GMT
Our own complacency in our respective nations is leading to decreased freedom, all in the false name of 'security'. As JG Bennett once wrote, 'security can only ever be achieved at the cost of freedom' - and true security it is not! Perhaps this article may be worth perusing - and it unfortunately applies to more countries than simply the USA (the UK and Australia are two others that spring to mind).
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jmd
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fourhares.com
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Post by jmd on Jun 11, 2007 7:42:11 GMT
Oh... and by the way - I trust not the 'legal' system as it now has degenerated in the USA - as this poor Canadian found to his loss.
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Post by billmcelligott on Jun 11, 2007 7:44:26 GMT
For those who do not know thw facts:
Leonard Peltier was convicted and is currently incarcerated , serving two consecutive life sentences, for the murders of FBI Special Agents, Ronald A. Williams, 27, and Jack R. Coler, who were killed in a 1975 shoot-out on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. Peltier has been in prison since February 6, 1976.
His defence is: On Pine Ridge he participated in the planning of community activities, religious ceremonies, programs for self-sufficiency, and improved living conditions. He also helped to organize security for the traditional people who were being targeted for violence by the pro-assimilation tribal chairman and his vigilantes. It was here that the tragic shoot-out of June 26, 1975 occurred, leading to his wrongful conviction.
*wikipedia *The case for Leonard Peltier
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Post by penfold on Jun 11, 2007 8:10:51 GMT
Straying into politics here, I have my own opinions on the present state of legal affairs and supression of human rights in several countries round the world, UK, US and Australia to name but 3, not sure if here is a suitable place to be airing those opinions.
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Post by parisfred on Jun 11, 2007 8:57:52 GMT
penfold yes you re right
Knowing the differences between our Masonics’ cultures it’s an everyday lesson in tolerance to exchange. ;D ;D ;D
More than political we are close to ethical and philosophy, It’s where the real difference between all the “Masonic worlds” appears, Opposing spiritual and “political” masonry is an error; in fact they work with different word on or against dogmatism and boy-scout moral.
Freemasonry, it is my opinion, is not about comforting opinions but challenging them.
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Post by penfold on Jun 11, 2007 9:08:16 GMT
Bro Fred, personally I feel as masons we should always be looking out for those who are oppressed, in this I believe the UN and Amnesty play a huge part in the world.
Theron - I am suprised and disappointed by your vehement rejection of 2 bodies that do a huge amount of good in the world.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Jun 11, 2007 11:04:59 GMT
Bro penfold,
the "political correctness" hit you, too!
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