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Post by calvin on Aug 13, 2007 3:29:46 GMT
In one of my Lodges we use "oath and obligation". No hairs to split there.
Cal
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Post by hollandr on Aug 13, 2007 3:29:48 GMT
What's happened to mysterygirl?
Has she nothing to contribute to knowledge of TC?
I am particularly interested in the idea of TC as "a God of the forge" and whether such rituals produce results
Cheers
Russell
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Aug 13, 2007 3:52:53 GMT
What's happened to mysterygirl? I guess that's the "mystery"
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 7:15:53 GMT
...we have Sworn on Oath not to disclose ... I'm not sure to which jurisdiction you quote but as far as I'm aware I have never sworn an Oath - an Obligation, Yes. There is a distinct difference. either, either, neither, neither, tomatoe, tomatoe, potatoe, potatoe, etc please see 'oath' and 'obligation' as interchangeable - that was my intent.
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jmd
Member
fourhares.com
Posts: 1,081
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Post by jmd on Aug 13, 2007 8:08:48 GMT
Well, let's have a look at this in a little more detail in the manner implied (at least to my eyes) by mysterygirl. I would suggest that if 'Tubal-Cain' has also been appropriated by neo-pagan groups as a god of fire, it is through a chain of association that certainly has naught to do with Freemasonry, but may be nonetheless interesting to consider as a style of thinking that does often take place amongst some of our brethren (at times perhaps enabling deeper insights to emerge, and at other times only adding confusion and overlays that do not clarify any aspect of Freemasonry, nor properly belong within the Craft). Let's take it systematically, but ultra-succintly, so as not to be a long essay. One of the points many neo-pagans make is that the Devil is but a transformation and diminution of a (or various) pagan gods (not arguing for or against this - only that it is a generally accepted point). Next step is that the Underworld is similarly associated with the Devil - and hence all gods and goddesses therein. One of the key Greek Gods residing not so much in the underworld, but something similar (a cave) is Hephaestus - from whom Prometheus stole the Fire to gift humanity. If one looks at Hephaestus, it is not difficult to see in him not only the 'god of the forge' and the god of smiths in general, but also, as a consequence, of craftsmen - especially those dealing with metals - a general and fair overview of him is online here. Then there is a further element to this - something I also raised in a Tarot context in 2002 - which connects card XV (commonly called the 'Devil') with Hephaestus ( see post 13 of this thread). It is no great step to also suggest, by association and similarity of claimed tasks, that Tubal-Cain, as first artificer in metals, is identical to Hephaestus, and hence to the 'Devil', and hence to the horned god, and hence to the God of the Woods, etc.. What does all this have to do with Freemasonry? nothing, in my view, save that the name "Tubal-Cain" as found in Genesis may be used by both 'Crafts', in each, to be sure, with different connotations and understanding.
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Post by wayseer on Aug 13, 2007 9:04:56 GMT
please see 'oath' and 'obligation' as interchangeable - that was my intent.
Yes - I agree Bro Penfold - that may have been your intent but - there is a distinct difference.
In the Obligation with which I am familiar there is no reference to the Ancient penalty - the only penalty is that of being branded a willfully perjured individual totally unfit to be receive into this or any other warrant Lodge ...
What I think is important is to clear up misunderstandings about the extent of the Obligation. The S ... of an EAF has an allusion to the Ancient penalty of the Obligation - note the use of the past tense. I agree, common parlance inevitable draws little or no distinction between the two - historically I would argue that there is a difference.
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 13, 2007 9:32:45 GMT
Bro Wayseer, in my Masonic Body, LDH, we still have the Ancient Physical Penalties embodied in our Obligations and I am very pleased that is the case. What other GLs etc do in this instance is their affair.
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Post by whistler on Aug 13, 2007 9:50:35 GMT
Bro Wayseer, in my Masonic Body, LDH, we still have the Ancient Physical Penalties embodied in our Obligations and I am very pleased that is the case. What other GLs etc do in this instance is their affair. Yes Lauderdale and that is a very special part of our ritual - as after describing the really painful and as well as the esoteric nasties Co- masons say all those things are preferable to being considered void of all Moral worth - which suggest to me that those who get hung up on the presence of the ancient penalties are more concerned about their physical comfort then their honour
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Post by mysterygirl on Aug 13, 2007 18:49:28 GMT
What's happened to mysterygirl? Has she nothing to contribute to knowledge of TC? I am particularly interested in the idea of TC as "a God of the forge" and whether such rituals produce results Cheers Russell Sorry, gentlemen. I'm a freelance writer and a mother of little ones. I'm not online all the time. Your discussion has been interesting, and I am sorry that I missed the post that got deleted. Wish I'd seen it before it got the boot. My Tradition is based partially on Wicca and partially on what is termed Traditional Witchcraft. Traditional Witchcraft has ties to the group known as The Clan of Tubal Cain, though those folks see and work with him as a much darker entity than do we. In my experience and from my training, I know TC as a forge God, a blacksmith. Like you, I know him as a worker, the first worker, of metals. Witches, for ages, have been said to have a mark, and it is sometimes called the Mark of Qayin (or Cain). During the witch trials, it was assumed to be a birthmark, and women were in danger for having any odd spot on their bodies. Usually, though, this mark would be a tattoo. I received such a mark when I initiated into my 3rd Degree, the highest in our order, and the one during which I became a high priestess. The mark is 3 dots, sometimes called the toad's foot. Mine is on the ring finger of my right hand. Honestly, the main way that we come to know and work with TC is through the Mystery of the Forge. Understanding what it means to be the hammer that shapes, the anvil that steadies, the fire that transforms, the water that quenches, and the metal that becomes. To understand TC is to understand the power of personal transformation, the death and rebirth that is the initiatory process. Witches are interested in cycles. Seasonal cycles, lunar cycles, life cycles. Circles, spirals, triskeles. All these symbols echo the same concept -- the concept that echoes throughout nature, Craft and life. Tubal Cain and his Craft are one expression of that. So, that's what I know of Tubal Cain. As you see, what I know doesn't come from a book, for the most part. When it comes to TC, I don't think many scholarly references exist. Sure, the reference in Genesis, but it isn't exactly rich with detail. I kind of figured that since you had the symbol (I've seen the little lapel pins) that made a reference to Tubal Cain, that you might have more to share. I do appreciate what you've shared, though, and I am sorry to have sparked more debate about folks possibly overstepping oaths and obligations. Witches have similar secrets to keep. (However, I can say from some experience that the uninitiated simply won't receive the Mysteries until they are ready. And if they get those Mysteries outside of the temple, then that enlightenment probably didn't happen through the interference of man, anyway.)
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Post by mysterygirl on Aug 13, 2007 19:09:49 GMT
This song is about Tubal Cain, and though it isn't ancient by any means, it certainly encompasses some of the lore that surrounds him. I thought I would share it with you, in the interest of sharing knowledge.
"Tubal Cain" (circa 1846-56) The Words by Charles Mackay, Esq. The Music Composed and Sung by Henry Russell, 1812-1900. [pages 81-88 from "One Hundred Songs by Henry Russell" (?)]
1. Old Tubal Cain was a man of might, In the days when Earth was young; By the fierce red light of his furnace bright, The strokes of his hammer rung, And he lifted high his brawny hand On the iron, glowing clear, Till the sparks rush’d out in scarlet rout, As he fashion’d the sword and spear; And he sang “Hura! for my handiwork! Hurra for the spear and sword! Hurra for the hand that shall wield them well, For he shall be King and Lord!”
2. To Tubal Cain came many a one, As he wrought by his roaring fire, And each one pray’d for a strong steel blade, As the crown of his own desire; And he made them weapons sharp and strong Till they shouted loud for glee, And gave him gifts of pearls and gold, And spoils of the forest free; And they sang “Hurra for Tubal Cain Who hath giv’n us strength anew¬¬ Hurra for the smith! hurra for the fire! And hurra for the metal true!”
3. But a sudden change come o’re his head Ere the setting of the sun; And Tubal Cain was fill’d with pain For the evil he had done; He saw that men, with rage and hate, Made war upon their kind; And the land was red with the blood they shed In their lust for carnage blind; And he said “Alas! that ever I made, Or that skill of mine should plan, The spear and the sword for men whose joy Is to slay their fellow man!”
4. And for many a day old Tubal Cain Sat brooding o’er his woe; And his hand forbore to smite the ore, And his furnace smoulder’d low: And he rose at last with a cheerful face, And a bright courageous eye, And bar’d his strong right arm for work, While the quick flames mounted high; And he sang “Hurra for my handiwork! And the red sparks lit the air,¬¬ Not alone for the blade was the bright steel made,” And he fashion’d the first ploughshare.
5. And men, taught wisdom from the past, In friendship join’d their hands,¬¬ Hung the sword in the hall, the spear on the wall, And plough’d the willing lands; And sang “Hurra for Tubal Cain, Our staunch good friend is he; And for the ploughshare, and the plough, To him our praise shall be. But while oppression lifts its head, Or a tyrant would be lord, Though we may thank him for the plough, We’ll not forget the sword.”
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Post by hollandr on Aug 13, 2007 22:08:25 GMT
Mysterygirl
Thanks for your contributions.
In Masonry there is no overt dark aspect to TC - perhaps as he has so little role in the ritual. But it is clear from native traditions that the advent of metals and weapons was sometimes with dark intent
As far as hammers go, in Masonry we use gavels and mauls in various processes. The gavel is not overtly associated with TC being used to establish order (on various levels of existence)
While not commonly considered, the rhythmic use of the gavel is perhaps the key to its true nature. This may have some correspondence to the rhythmic, even music, use of the hammer in the forge
Cheers
Russell
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Post by thewidowsson on Aug 13, 2007 22:33:09 GMT
hi mysterygirl, thank you for your explanation about others thoughts on tc. very interesting indeed, you write an excellent piece, maybe we will hear some more from you in the future. thewidowsson.
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Post by maat on Aug 13, 2007 23:48:14 GMT
I have not read much on TC. But I do see the fire aspect associated with the stories as the negative aspect of the spirit of life.
As the Serpent(ine) path upwards is associated with Pure Spirit, so the serpentine path downwards is associated with impure spirit or the devil.
Picture the spiral with a line across the middle.
Similarly, above the middle line we have the fire or Spirit of creation (the 'Hu' or 'Ha' of Ra), and below the line the creations themselves used 'the/ir fire' to make their creations. And I think the legend is all about us giving up our inferior creations which are doing harm to ourselves and others and maintaining our light/fire for superior and masterly works.
Our creation/s being foremost our very selves (which are composed of metals).
Maat
"And he sang “Hura! for my handiwork!" Abram, became Abraham, and Sarabecame Sarah after their encounter with heavenly being/s.
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Post by hollandr on Aug 14, 2007 0:39:11 GMT
There is also a tradition in Co-Masonry that the candidate needs to learn to come to a right relationship with the elements including fire
Arguably the element of fire would correspond to the 3rd degree - hence the relevance of TC at that point
Cheers
Russell
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Post by hopefulmason on Aug 16, 2007 16:14:03 GMT
It is oath or obligation in Ohio as well. In a sense I suppose they are different. However, In my opinion, a promise is a promise however it is made.
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Post by hopefulmason on Aug 16, 2007 16:18:45 GMT
Sorry about the previous post. I was on the previous page when I posted.
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Post by penfold on Aug 16, 2007 17:51:36 GMT
Its a good reminder of what is important, however it is named, its a promise, made by a mason, a human of honour.
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