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Post by corab on Aug 15, 2007 11:39:32 GMT
Hi Sid, ... as I have mentioned before, there was a group of Knight Templar in Holland who were known by the locals as the "Goat riders". That's interesting. I'm Dutch and was thinking of "de bokkenrijders" the moment I saw the title of this thread, however the stories I grew up with never mentioned the Templars. De bokkenrijders were an 18th centruar gang of robbers who terrorised the "Landen van Overmaas" -- an area belonging to the Duchy of Brabant, and which were situated east of the princedom of Lieges. Legend had it that they had sworn a pact with the devil, and that they travelled the skies riding male goats. They were an unpleasant bunch of criminals who found strength in numbers and fear. They tortured their victims in order to get them to disclose where they kept their valuables, and then left them to die. Not the sort of thing I'd associate with the Knights Templar!
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 15, 2007 17:14:37 GMT
I guess it depends on who is telling the story...
According to Philip the Fair, the Templars were homosexual heretics.
According to the Catholic Church, Freemasons are heretics, and our "principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the Church, therefore membership remains forbidden"....Card. Joseph Ratzinger 1983
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Post by sid on Aug 15, 2007 22:13:11 GMT
Greetings, Hi Sid, ... as I have mentioned before, there was a group of Knight Templar in Holland who were known by the locals as the "Goat riders". That's interesting. I'm Dutch and was thinking of "de bokkenrijders" the moment I saw the title of this thread, however the stories I grew up with never mentioned the Templars. De bokkenrijders were an 18th centruar gang of robbers who terrorised the "Landen van Overmaas" -- an area belonging to the Duchy of Brabant, and which were situated east of the princedom of Lieges. Legend had it that they had sworn a pact with the devil, and that they travelled the skies riding male goats. They were an unpleasant bunch of criminals who found strength in numbers and fear. They tortured their victims in order to get them to disclose where they kept their valuables, and then left them to die. Not the sort of thing I'd associate with the Knights Templar! I was not given any information about any legends regarding criminals & murderers. It goes back a while but I will try and follow up on my source, and get back to you if anything of value turnes up. Does the sun not ride the goat of Capricorn, as it does when it passes through the other signs? The painting of Capricorn by JOHFRA was quite impressive, and I understand that he was also a contract painter/artist for Masonic subjects. His painting of Sagittarius is also worth closer study regarding the skin of the goat
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Post by maat on Aug 15, 2007 23:12:14 GMT
I guess it depends on who is telling the story... According to Philip the Fair, the Templars were homosexual heretics. .. the same Philip the (Un)Fair who owed the Templars a whole heap of money he did not want to repay? .. the same head of a church which tells 7 year olds that if they miss mass on sunday it is a mortal sin and if they die before confessing they will go to hell for all eternity? (Catholic Maat) People fear Freemasons because they are supposed to be Free and Reasonable thinkers.... a very dangerous thing in a society which you want to control! Which is probably why heroic whistle blowers, who sometimes risk life and limb in the name of truth, find it nigh on impossible to find employment thereafter. Such is society. Maat
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Post by gljimt on Aug 15, 2007 23:40:49 GMT
I skimmed most of this thread and find it interesting that everyone is up in arms about Baphomet and not one person seems to know what Baphomet actually is?
It has nothing to do with Goats in all honesty, the Templars where accused of worshiping Baphomet which has been descriped as just about everything you could think of the most enduring being a bearded head. However when we take the word Baphomet for what it is and decode it using the Templars own coding system we see that it is simply Sofia the greek word for wisdom
Baphomet = Sofia = Wisdom,
Under my current religious ideas Wisdom is a great thing to worship. As all Wisdom comes from the GAOTU and is the GAOTU
--- I consider myself a Gnositic
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 15, 2007 23:50:30 GMT
Maat, yes. Those would be the same Catholics whose "principles" can NEVER be reconciled with Freemasonry.... I think our "principles" of brotherhood, faith, hope, and charity are too arcane for them to understand. LOL!
gljimt, yes, the baptism of wisdom = bapho metis.... I too am Gnostic in my beliefs.
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Post by gljimt on Aug 16, 2007 0:45:30 GMT
If anyone has read the papal bull against Freemasonry, then they should understand it to be a bull against everything the United States of America was founded now. In reality it is a bull agianst freedom
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 16, 2007 0:54:17 GMT
I have a copy that was sent out by the Masonic Research Society, if I can figure out how to post it.
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 16, 2007 1:05:03 GMT
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Post by hollandr on Aug 16, 2007 1:14:53 GMT
Here is my hypothesis about the goat. I would be interested in comments.
The goat is likely a reference to the supposed jewish practice of using a (e)scape goat to carry the sins of the people into the wilderness (or over a cliff). This also may relate to the practice of parading someone on a donkey (often facing backwards) as a means of degradation
So my hypothesis is that not only is the candidate poor and in a state of darkness, but the candidate may also be considered symbolically to bear the sins of ignorant actions
Any thoughts?
Russell
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Post by maat on Aug 16, 2007 3:52:54 GMT
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Post by maat on Aug 16, 2007 4:08:04 GMT
This site offers a very plausible explanation... "In depictions of Pan, and Bacchus, or Dionysius, the goat carried the favorable connotations of youth, merriment, freedom and love. As the attributes of these Greek deities became identified with the Christian Satan, the goat became a symbol for excess, drunkenness, gluttony and licentiousness. Goats represent the souls of the wicked, according to Matthew 25:32-33...... Read on.. freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/goat.htmlThank you Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon. Maat
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Post by keith on Aug 16, 2007 4:22:01 GMT
Here we go again!
1. In the early days of Freemasonry, Lodges frequently met at inns and were referred to a "the Lodge at the. . . (whatever the name of the inn was)." It has been suggested by some that one such inn where a Lodge met was "The Goat and Compasses" which was probably a corruption of "God Encompasseth Us". Naturally it would be known in the community that a Lodge met on the premises also that the Compasses are an instrument used by Masons. In the circumstances it is easy to to imagine a would-be humourist explaining that part of the Initiation would be to have the Candidate "ride the goat". (From the Transactions of the Masters & Past Master Lodge No. 130)
2. In the early days of Freemasonry in New Zealand, many Lodges met in small rural Lodges and kept a goat or goats on the surrounding land as "lawnmowers", goats requiring relatively little care. And people speculated on possible other reasons for their presence.
3. I shall have to search for this in the archives but I found an explanation of a method of moving a stone horizontally using a piece of equipment called a "goat" once it had been lifted by the lewis
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 16, 2007 4:50:37 GMT
Russell, YES! You nailed it!
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 16, 2007 4:52:55 GMT
Now.... What happens to the "ignorant" goats, and what happens to the "scape" goat? =}
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Post by hollandr on Aug 16, 2007 5:40:38 GMT
It may be that the progressive removal of the cable tow represents release from the burden of past actions performed in ignorance
Cheers
Russell
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Post by thedixiemason on Aug 16, 2007 5:49:17 GMT
Russell, No... I don't think so.
I don't think one can show his ignorance until at least after he has been released from his cables tow...
Before then, they must be ignorant, right?
The High Priest took two goats for a sin offering. One as a sacrifice, and one to be set free...
The one who was set free was the "scapegoat" and became the "horned God of the forests." Pan, Baccus, whoever...
He was the one who knew the sins.
Yet he was the one who lived...
The "innocent" one died.
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Post by corab on Aug 16, 2007 12:07:28 GMT
I guess it depends on who is telling the story... Nope. There's fact and there's fiction. "it depends on who is telling the story" falls in the latter of those two categories. I couldn't care less if they were; it doesn't make them the band of robbers the bokkenrijders were. S&F, Cora
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Post by corab on Aug 16, 2007 12:12:12 GMT
I was not given any information about any legends regarding criminals & murderers. It goes back a while but I will try and follow up on my source, and get back to you if anything of value turnes up. Cool, thanks Very interesting point. It's well worth reading C.W. Leadbeater in this respect, particularly "The Hidden Life of Freemasonry" Freemasonry certainly does have a solar aspect to it -- you only have to consider the Opening & Closing ceremonies and the stations of the principal officers in that respect. S&F, Cora
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Post by maat on Aug 16, 2007 22:59:59 GMT
... Jesus is thought to be a Capricorn ... Could have been someone mischievously stirring the 'religious' pot ... ?? www.thezodiac.com/weird/jesuscapricorn.htm...And the precessional phenomenon of the Platonic "Great Year" which occurs only once every approximately 26,000 years, and signifies the beginning of a new 26,000 year cycle for humankind is thought be some astrologers to start in Cancer and conclude in Capricorn. Interestingly enough Cancer is all about mothering and nurturing. And Capricorn makes interesting reading as well. Among other things they make good leaders and builders. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capricorn_%28astrology%29Maat
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