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Post by parisfred on Aug 13, 2007 10:03:24 GMT
Hello, I am looking for this two ritual, Schroeder is from Deutschland and Taylor is a variation of the English ritual.
And I will read with pleasure anything you know about it !
fraternally,
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 10:10:37 GMT
You can buy a Taylors Ritual book from Lewis Masonic, and I imagine Schroeders is also available from a masonic publishers. By all means feel free to discuss the differences, history, etc, but in light of recent postings, please do not post specific ritual sections, many thanks
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Aug 13, 2007 10:36:41 GMT
Bro Penfold, I am hoping that what you mean is not what you literally said, for the moment that ritual sections are henceforth disallowed (apart from the signs and words), I shall consider that this Forum has taken a step too far in seeking to control its members. Bro ParisFred, Taylor's ritual is available from lodgeroomuk.net.wwwebserver.net/catalogue.php?cat=11My understanding is that the Schroeder ritual was a relatively early translation from the English of a mid-18th century variant used in England, somewhat similar to what became Emulation, and that later, via the influence of various Lodges of Instructions set up to kind of sort out the hundreds of rituals used in the UK following the formation of UGLE in the 19th century, gave rise to Taylor's in the 20th.
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Post by lauderdale on Aug 13, 2007 10:48:46 GMT
With you there Bro JMD, you can buy them via the Internet after all. I know what I swore to Heal , Conceal ,and never Reveal and that is it as far as I am concerned.
There may well be Threads on which posters wish to compare and contrast the likes of Lauderdale, Taylor's, Logic, West End, Emulation, etc and how they deal with particular parts of the Ceremony, for example which way the VSL faces etc. I honestly can see no problem as long as the Modes of Recognition are not revealed.
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Post by brandt on Aug 13, 2007 12:06:56 GMT
my dear Brother Fred, One of my lodge Brothers has a Taylor ritual. I will see what I can do about getting you a copy.
Brandt
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 12:14:55 GMT
No worries there JMD, we aren't going to get all heavy on people, however, our members are, I'm sure intelligent enough to realise that altho the info is out there, it shouldn't be revealed from this site, its something we have always held to, not something new. And its not a case of perambulations, how things are set, we recently had someone post an entire section of a ritual from a ritual book - and thats a definite no no, for all sorts of reasons.
People are entitled to opinions, they are also entitled to disagree with opinions, what they can't do is tell us how to run the forum.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Aug 13, 2007 12:34:38 GMT
It is indeed new if suddenly it is the case that members are now instructed to "do not post specific ritual sections", if by this is made a blanket comment (such as many of us have in fact done, and that from a variety of rituals). What I would like clarified is whether it is simply your own expression, or whether it is a new Forum instruction.
If the latter, of course any Forum may make its own decisions (after all, the very existence of MFoL arose out of some initial disgruntlement - however we may like to term or see it - in another Forum in other ways worthwhile, but to which I have personally ceased to contribute).
If you search through my posts (and those of others), I'm confident you will find various "specific ritual sections" posted (though not, as yet, from either of the rituals heading this thread, ...something I shall seek to rectify in the near future).
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 12:51:18 GMT
It is indeed new if suddenly it is the case that members are now instructed to "do not post specific ritual sections", if by this is made a blanket comment (such as many of us have in fact done, and that from a variety of rituals). What I would like clarified is whether it is simply your own expression, or whether it is a new Forum instruction. If the latter, of course any Forum may make its own decisions (after all, the very existence of MFoL arose out of some initial disgruntlement - however we may like to term or see it - in another Forum in other ways worthwhile, but to which I have personally ceased to contribute). If you search through my posts (and those of others), I'm confident you will find various " specific ritual sections" posted (though not, as yet, from either of the rituals heading this thread, ...something I shall seek to rectify in the near future). So, in effect you are saying 'forget you, I'll post what I like' -? We have never seen the need to explicitly state the rule regarding ritual as we felt that all members would know the boundaries, even allowing for jurisdictional differences. This thread has openend the door, I'll discuss it with my fellow admin and mods, and we'll let you know the outcome.
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Aug 13, 2007 13:02:36 GMT
You certainly seem to be reading more into it than I said.
My question was whether your view - which appears to be merely your own - is something that the Forum as a whole is now advocating as a requirement. Quite simple, and no need to be rude.
If is is merely your own, then I shall post relevant sections. If a Forum direction, then I shall simply withdraw.
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 13:05:14 GMT
You certainly seem to be reading more into it than I said. My question was whether you view about what appears to be merely your own is something that the Forum as a whole is now advocating as a requirement. Quite simple, and no need to be rude. JMD, there is no difference between my opinion and that of the forum admin - you seem to have taken it that it is MY stipulation, however, it is one we have adhered to from the formation of the forum without it being explicit. If there is now a need for it to be expicit it will go thru the usual process, i.e. discussion by the admin and mod's, and a decision taken. You did appear to be saying - at the end of the reply - "Don't care what you say, I'M going to post it"
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Aug 13, 2007 13:13:47 GMT
..."from the formation of the forum" As first registered member (after Staffs), I do not recall this at all! In that case, you may want to comb the Forums and delete all offending posts!
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Post by penfold on Aug 13, 2007 13:24:53 GMT
"without it being explicit"
Just because you aren't aware of it, doesn't mean it ain't so. Brother, This discussion is unedifying, and doesn't cover either of us well, lets discuss by PM, and with your consent I will remove the relevant postings.
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Post by parisfred on Aug 13, 2007 15:20:40 GMT
Thanks for your help, about Taylor ritual, It looks more difficult for Schroeder rite to find information. I believe that one lodge use it n London but none in Paris.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Aug 13, 2007 16:16:16 GMT
Bro. JMD, there are many Freemasons (such as myself) who would, at the very, very least, be expected to encipher direct quotes from ritual. I'm more than a bit startled that your jurisdiction does not require this but I will say I'd be disappointed in anyone here who doesn't respect this established standard and courtesy. It certainly is part of the rules on most Masonic forums and I am advocating it be added to the rules here, since it apparently needs to be.
As for this being published elsewhere, so let's just open all the gates . . . we are not responsible for what others do, only what we, ourselves, as individual Freemasons do. I don't care where it's published, I will be mindful of my Ob* and *I* will not be posting unenciphered passages from ritual.
Bro. Fred, Bro. Bill also carries a copy of Taylors at LodgeRoomUK. What I've seen of Schroeder's is absolutely eye-popping. You might also get a copy of the Universal, for comparison.
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Post by maat on Aug 14, 2007 0:29:30 GMT
Apologies jmd. I do not share penfold's view, but in all fairness to him I have to say I have been away so have not been part of any discussions.
This forum would be much the poorer without your contributions!!!
Maat
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Aug 14, 2007 8:36:12 GMT
No need for any apologies... I do not hold back if I consider something not right, as those who know me know full well (eg, when asked openly in front of other brethren of one of my Lodges how I knew about a certain ritual used in France in a constitution with which we are not in amity, I replied "I witnessed it during my last visit" - and similarly have never hidden my visitations to Co-Freemasonry on this board and elsewhere). As far as I'm concerned, they do not break the obligations I took - unless interpreted in a manner that means that my own GL breaks those same regulations.
Bro. (or Sister, as preferenced in some constitutions) imakegarb, I am aware that the norm amongst most US brethren is to initialise most words. This is not the case locally, and everything in print (ie, printed in our ritual books) is not in letter form. In any case, if such is deemed to break the obligation, then even those US-based constitutions that print their ritual by the first and last letters of words need to reconcile this with the part that states "lest the least trace of any letter, [etc]".
Where I am in total agreement is with imakegarb's comment that "we are not responsible for what others do, only what we, ourselves, as individual Freemasons do": and if I am irresponsible, I do not hide behind a monicker that mis-identifies me! In any case, I have not personally (nor will I) state what our passwords, words, grips or tokens are, unless in the proper context.
If, however... how shall I do this... to give an example, let's say that one of our passwords was "Rooster" (as far as I'm aware, this is NOT used in any degree with which I am familiar as a password), and someone asked what "Rooster" was, I would answer simply and as much to the point as possible. This would not mean that I am in any manner revealing the password - after all, no password with which I am aware is exclusive to Freemasonry, and it would reveal more by feigning ignorance than in straightforwardly responding.
(This does go beyond the impulse of this thread a little, and am of course supportive for Penfold to remove current posts #5 through to #11 inclusive should he wish to do so)
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Post by penfold on Aug 14, 2007 9:12:42 GMT
Ah, you have forgotten about the Noble and Most Ancient Order of the Fowl........
Bro JMD, I have amended by earlier offensive posting, and apologise for any offence. I do feel I need to clarify something, it is not suggested that there is a blanket ban on publishing ritual, however, the most recent instance included a description of a grip, a password and a large section of ritual from the third that I, and others, were very uncomfortable seeing posted here. I know you, and the many other experienced masons who take the time to contribute here fully understand and act within the bounds of their obligations, and more importantly their consciences. If the enforcement is aimed at anyone it is those who think it amusing or for other reasons post up whole sections of ritual. I don't wish to get into a semantic debate on who owns copyright, etc, on ritual, but suffice to say, a lot of ritual is subject to copyright and for that reason alone the admin and moderators of the forum have a legal responsibility and duty to remove posts that go too far in posting up the ritual.
I hope that this explanation goes some way to helping to clarify the reasons for the recent pronouncement.
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Post by parisfred on Aug 14, 2007 13:49:17 GMT
thanks to your help, I found the Schroeder ritual, in german, the translation in french or english is not easy...
from what I read, I don't know in which family we can classify this ritual : not esoteric, question on duty in the room of reflection, emphasis on personal progress, about the origin : - Left F, - degree sacred w:. : J, - and password Tub:.
bible and GAOTU but far from the direct reference to God that are found usually in English ritual.
they do the chain of U. no swords
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Aug 14, 2007 22:54:08 GMT
Hmmmmm. Bro. Fred, you posted this some time but. But it's relevant and, I think, very good. I'm also a HUGE Julian Rees fan, so: Spirituality in Freemasonry
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Post by leonardo on Aug 18, 2007 7:50:12 GMT
Thanks Bro, Karen. A beautiful, moving piece.
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