Ag shame man... O well I it think as masons we must all take care not to trample on thers feelings and beliefs. That sort of behaviour would not go unnoticed at lodge, it should not be any different at this forum.
Thanks for the replies guys. Ja me thinks the brain is a complex organ. I remember attending a neuro-science demonstration, my team leader volunteered to be part of the test - this guy hooked her up to a tiny machine. and asked her questions and we watched her brain activity on a screen, he stopped for a while and all of a sudden the activity spiked I mean off the charts - he asked what happened - and she said "I was thinking about running the comrades marathon next week and it really scared me" she had been training for 2 yrs for it. Now imagine what meditation and getting into the opposite state - relaxation can do – we are shutting off the logic centres. People always seem to have near death experiences or past life episodes when completely relaxing the left frontal lobe. Now I am unsure what to make of it all, but there are more near death experiences than past life reports. I read a NDE of a woman who met her dead mom and sister (only her sister was alive - or so she thought) turns out her dad kept it away from her while she was in hospital. How could she know? If those souls were indeed re-incarnated - then how did she see them? Like Rembrandt says - each of our experience shapes our beliefs - maybe if I saw my ‘past life’ I would believe (like you Vaj) maybe if I had a NDE I would believe that too, right now suffice to say ones experiences are ones beliefs and mine are… well mine. The one thing I do know is that there is a God and He must be so amused at our simple minds. And if He created us or the stuff that created us then He must love us dearly. My experiences have led me to believe that Jesus is that divinity and all that matters for me is that He cares. Also my experiences have led me to believe that Science is wonderful and we know very little of it or this 3rd dimension and even less about the 4th - and even less about our own brains, which create all the experiences we encounter. My point and I do have one is that we should experience as much in life as we can. Then perhaps we can have a panoramic perspective of things.
hi all, compliements of the season dudes. Hope it was gud. I don't think its statistically possible to call something a theory/hypothesis and a fact at the same time. But thats not my point. I have to ask, ceteris paribus, and even religion aside, if one were to know their past life, what would u do with that? How shall it benefit one now? Its clear if u subscirbe to reincarnation, that ur past life was not pure enough to proceed to enlightenment with the True Light, hence reincarnation. So why care about at all? Should we not life for our life now, the best we can? I am not askin to be arguementative but rather to be enlighted (ooops wrong choice of word there.). Seriously tho if knowing could somehow help, great! Anyhoo the MPCG of our region and i had an awesome chat about reincarnation. The thing i like about lodge is the great genuine tolerance for everyones beliefs. No one would dare poke fun at my being a christian and I would not dare belittle their belief. Also for reincarnaton to occur jesus would have had to die, since he did and rose again (my belief) then he cannot be reincarnated. The same is ture of elijah and enoch the 2 phrophets many claim will be reincarnated, they never died.
Please enlighten me on how I am fishing for ritual details? the only reason I posted this topic was to understand it Baphomet was part of masonic belief, since I was assured earlier on in the thread by Bill that it was not found in any masonic ritual I choose to mention. If I wanted to find out about any ritual I am sure I could find it on the net anyway I would not ask here.
By Ancient I mean the earliest Fremasonry practised - which could not contain Baphomet or referneces to it since like I said this is a relativley recent word and concept like. I am unsure where you comment on specious claims comes from and quite frankly I feel insulted by it - You seem to read into peoples words things are just not there.
Interesting conversations to read through. Always good to learn new things - always better to discern tho. Still no-one has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that Baphomet was part of ancient freemasonry or forms part of rituals in any of the 33 degrees - commentary has been written which uses Baphomet as symbols, again this is modern mans interpretation of the rituals, which no doubt had very distinct meaning for our ancient brothers – and was enough to elevate them to the higher planes without having to use any other analogies – are we not complicating an otherwise very simple science and truth? Will the divine not accept ones oaths sworn, based on the original given rites and rituals? Sometimes; as the VSL says; the Grand Architect uses the foolish things to confound the wise. The Grand Architect is not so high and mighty that he requires us to manufacture symbols and mediate upon these to reach his presence – In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word was God – find the Word. Since Baphomet was only a recent creation and did not exist earlier than the templar’s or Codex Gigas or Crowley… then it is not the ‘Word’ and there are other ways to portray all the aspects written above (wisdom, the hermaphrodite – etc.) without Baphomet. I think we must just get back to being simple and pure of heart and the rest will follow – if one feels the need to discuss Baphomet and study it so mote it be, but not in open lodge as I do not think it was part of craft masonry or any other masonry. Like mentioned before I think it’s a great topic over a beer or at tea after lodge. But this is just my opinion.
Ja as Whistler says, sometimes you gotta take a leap - I don't always believe all they teach at lodge but they know my beliefs and I kinda know most of theirs. And its not dogma they don't claim that its better than your theories. If you wanna be cautious tho - understand what Annie Bessant added to the rituals (literally) and understand what is in mainstream male craft rituals and have good healthy discussions about why Annie added certain things. I do and I get some excellant discussion around it. If anything being a Mason has allowed me listen to other philosophy and choose what makes sense to me and not.
Hi there Lynn123, I did and do have the same 'let downs' as you do about Co/female-Masonry. Of course Annie Bassant re-wrote many of the rituals - which I enquired about. We are mainly LDH in SA. But there were some who broke away, I understand - and are termed clandestine. They wanted to follow the male craft rituals more closely - which I have to say, I kinda agree with. It is sad and I believe this is how the one true understanding of God (TGAOTU) has evoloved into all the different religions, which now fight each other claiming to be the truth - Masonry or female masonry could well go the same way if it does not unite in its core rituals and truths. At least thats my opionion - it was on the Baphomet topic and always will be - the core truths must never change. Honestly I am just happy to attend a lodge that accpets me for me and values my opinion at discussions, but also creates interesting agendas for me to ponder on, even if if they are agaist my personal beliefs. I am a young Mason but I'd like to think that at the end of the day, God is glorified and thats all that matters to me.
There was a cool Rosicrusian saying, that when you are ready for wisdom a teacher and wisdom will find you. i am paraphrasing, they had a more elaquent way of saying it. Wisdom is free to all tho wisdom becomes useful with knowledge and knowledge is powerful when it is understood. Hence wisdom then knowlege then understanding. Wisdom is only the begining. Even the very 'wise' can read the masonic ritual and not truely understand. If u are ready to receive Choochoo808, then ask, knock and seek u shall surely find.
Yes Alistair Crowley who was dubbed to be the most Evil man of the century by time magazine. Most masonic lodges will separate themselves entirely from him and his doctrine at the OTO. Asscoating him with Masonry is as damaging as associating Baphomet with it. But each to their own I guess - Just remeber if it wasn't in Masonry to begin with then don't add or subtract. There are eloborate ways to find god and simple ways to find God - Buddah and Jesus were all about simplicity and love not in the de-tail - but becomeing the de-head. Path of least resistance guys... Anyhoo, if you really think of it - God loves His people and it should be enough to call upon Him and He will answer you even in this 3rd dimension. But careful what name you call out cos thats what will contact you!
The above is all very enlightening – when such understandings were added to masonry is as big a secret as any - since it is unknown when masonry really began - The dating back of the ritual is difficult to ascertain - however, Knight and Lomas (The Hiram Key) take a stab and visit the early Pharaohs and try to visit archaeological evidence to verify the myth. And they come up with very interesting theories, I think some of their timelines were off but interesting.
They basically heard of the discovery of a Mummy in Egypt that fit the description of Hiram's death - blows to the head, and 3 other mummy’s with genitals removed... etc, so they hypothesis that given then ritual the Egyptians perform at the death of a Pharaoh - then this ritual is where the 3rd degree stems from - now the Egyptians lost the secret word with this Pharaoh cos he would not yield it to the other inhabitant of Egypt at the time (Joseph and clan) they tried to steal the ritual of resurrection - the Pharaoh died rather than yield (hence after the death of this Pharaoh none of the Pharaohs had the Ra attached to their name as was custom) - then Knight and Lomas quote some bible verses to substantiate that the Israeli patriarchs constantly wanted the secret ritual - they arrive at the solution that masonry adopted the principle of ‘Myet’ from the Egyptians - relief, truth, charity, and also the ritual itself - but not the secret word of resurrection as that was "lost" - so if you read the book they place the loss of the word, ritual (Hiram Ritual) as far back as that incident in Egypt - but the resurrection ritual itself was given to the Egyptians by theirs gods much earlier in time. Thus the 3rd degree or Master Mason was considered to be the highest level of awakening the Man. But still not complete without the Word – so in the 1st degree we say: In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word was God and the VSL is opened and the lodge opened officially. Even at this beginning point, Masonry is plainly saying the Word is God and God is the resurrection power. So when Jesus said I am the resurrection and the life – that statement was very important on many levels, any Masons around would have instantly been drawn to this man to hear what he was saying… No man goes to the Father but through Me – No man is raised but through the Word. (but that was a little off topic – if you have a read through the book it will explain the beginnings of the ritual but also leave you with an array of questions on other issues)
Yep Daniel is my fav too - I know much is hidden away - even Daniel was told to lock/shut up the book as it was not time yet to unlock it. Poor guy saw images of thing that must seem like a sci-fi movie - still what was hidden to him is childs play for us - the book is unlocked... (non-sesne to Dan but very sensical to us) Knowledge has abounded. I don't belief everything but I do do listen to EVERYTHING, therein lies an once of truth - you gotta sift it.
Enjoying the view from you own perspective IS great. Agree lots has been hidden but in plain view. Nice chat
"The scriptures are often take as history, perhaps more could be gained from them if they were viewed as allegories."
Hey hello guys, thanks for the info I hope I did not come across as narrow minded above, I really do like to understand other ideas and concepts. The Bible makes much sense to me on both a literal (as you put it non-sense) level but I agree much is symbolic - but I think people do go overboard with the allegoric references sometimes things are literal - like the stuff in the book of Daniel - there is archaeological evidence now that Balthazar did exist - for the longest time science and history said the Bible made up this Babylonian King cos he did not appear on their record of Kings (so pople made the story allegoric and symbolic with a deep teaching), a clay tablet recovered in the region, explained how he was named King for a period while his father went off to battle it was at this point that Cyrus the Great attacked Babylon - the Bible mentioned it before science and History could verify it. Not everything is allegoric and not everything is nonsense. I think sometimes we need to accept we only use 10-15% of our brains, God/or the extra terrestrial being spoken of in the VSL uses allot more. In fact the 7 heavens (unknown dimensions) and the 3 known = 10 dimensions: These are only now being proved by physics as part of string theory. The Bible/Torah, Neuwpa Alish, and Hindu verses mention these 10. I think such content was taken as allegoric but now is very literal a 10th dimension… nothing allegoric there... interesting the 10 heavens and 10 fold constitution of man? The trinity and the 3 dimensions known... Me thinks God shows himself differently in each dimension - and as there are 10 aspects of man then there could be 10 aspects of God - viewable on higher planes.
I believe when I die I will be sent to the higher plan of existence - for any part of me to remain in the 3rd (except my remains) will be unpleasant even hell - ummm to that end maybe reincarnation does make sense anyhoo, Jesus made it so that there was an easy graduation to the next level… not many prophets and enlightened beings made it so easy that just a belief in Him sorted all your past (even past lives if you believe in reincarnation) issues out. Still I can accept reincarnation if there were a finite amount of souls I refuse to believe that bad people come back as a cockroach’s – cos then I think I killed Hitler and his friends several times over then. Plus I think cockroach’s have awesome lives… lol
Thanks for your reply - however you have still not proved that these scriptures imply reincarnation –
“Least a man is born again he shall never see the Kingdom of Heaven” actually contradicts reincarnation.
Like I said, John was meant to be Elijah who never died he was taken up.... James in 3v6 was talking about the course of nature ANOTHER translation (KJV) "sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." James was preaching about hell here and how mans tongue can land him there - not reincarnation.
John 9v2? In fact Jesus later says of this man neither him nor is parents sinned but that this was done for the glory of God...Mmmm thats not very reincarnation like.
The last 3 verses also are speaking about this life - the disciple often spoke in parables and they used agriculture and war as imagery alot – these verses must be inspired by the Roman capture of Jerusalem the place of peace.
hi there, a good book to read is the Hiram Key by Knight & Lomas, bad researchers but good hypothesis you will see their theory on Hiram and the historical connection. Its a bit sacrelige but worth a read if you are a mason.
I read an article about reincarnation and decided to give it a rethink since the RWM at our lodge mentioned it - now I don't think believe in it, but it seems that most freemasons do.
The article I read mentions John the Baptist as a reincarnation of Elijah - but reincarnation requires one to die a physical death in order to be reincarnated (ceteris paribus), so when Jesus mentions John as Elijah he cannot be talking about reincarnation Elijah never died - in fact the two pople who were said to come before the Messiah arrives are Elijah and Enoch - both were taken into the heavens did not die a physical death so there really isn't much in the way of reincarnation in the Bible as most supporters insinuate.
What do you guys think - in terms of masonry and christianity that is???
Just a little side track from the 7 seals - well not really it is the Bible that mentions them - I just wanted to get a feel for whether in light of the above theory one may consider Jesus an allegoric figure or a literal one?
Hi bradwatsonmiami Thats a cool name! As is fractal - Apologies the HOATFM was meant for the other 7 seal discussion not yours - sorry again. A friend of mine is a phyiscist and studies black hole theory. smart girl - anyhoo she became fascinated with fractals and got me interested too - Everyone sould google fractals - very interesting You have all seem them and perhaps have not noticed. I think the HOATFM is a Co-Freemaosn concept not sure - Annise Bassant explains her view and mentions it in her ritual explaination. But it was meant as a tongue in cheek comment for the other discussion. HOATFM = Head Of All True Free Masons...
O! Gosh Middle Pillar - I left them in the dark - I am already a strange out of place Stats person in a Marketing environment - trying to pursuade ppl that the swastika should be seen for its original meaning, may mean eating lunch alone! I challange any white person to tatoo this on their arm and not get beaten up!