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Post by fractal3rd on Oct 7, 2011 7:21:23 GMT
Hello... wow lotsa emotions and lack of emotions huh? Guys it has been a cool discussion maybe we must agree to diss-agree on some points thats what makes humans.Thats cool. Anyhow, in an effort to be super human and right, I shall prove... lol just kidding...
Sorry I am unsure how to create the quote above and I too lazy to go read about it now... But I said... "Baphomet could never have been part of original masonry - why change masonry by adding to it what obviously is a controversial topic even amongst us masons." Then Matt said... "We don't actually know that. I'm not saying that it was. But masonry's origins are to a large part elusive. Perhaps intentionally to offer the historian an opportunity to open up to the Mystery. I'm certainly not trying to change or add anything to masonry."
Actually we can be really certain that the Baphomet symbol is a recent development and as such was not crafted into ritual or the gothic temples or buildings constructed by masons. There is no evidence to prove otherwise... Since the word does not appear in any ritual, I am told - then it is perhaps safe to say it was not meditated upon by the ancients.
Like, I agree with most all you have said in that looong post but I can't believe that out ancient brothers left everything up to the initiate to interpret - there must be an original meaning to everything taught - now I am not saying that one can't have their own belief or thought. And we must talk about new things we find associated with masonry like Baphomet ¡V but it was not an original teaching and if this sort of discussion were to break out at lodge will it remove the serene energy we strived to create in the first place that¡¦s why I think it should be discussed over tea or over a beer after lodge. Just an opinion. (Don¡¦t shoot for it ƒº) My point is Baphomet can be a part of the mason¡¦s belief and values but I don¡¦t think it was or should be part of Masonry¡K Many a Mason has ascended to the highest planes without Baphomet as an aid. This symbol is not an essential part or teaching to Masonry. So let us agree that it is part of the individual¡¦s belief and not part of Masonic belief per se¡¦. If it does become a Masonic teaching then we must entertain teachings of voodoo and Satanism by the same reasoning too¡K varying shades of Light and Dark right.
FYI if you ask any South African about the swastika (even the Hindus in SA who still paint it on their temples the opposite way around), the vast majority will identify it with the Nazi regime and nothing else ¡V I have asked a few people at work and they saw it as Nazi I drew it on paper without a background¡K
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Post by fractal3rd on Oct 6, 2011 6:10:40 GMT
Morning Matt, and everyone it’s a glorious day here in SA, and on the discussion board. Yes agree, that masonry has its own traditions and understanding - and should not change who and what it is for the whims of others who scarcely understand it. But having said that, Baphomet could never have been part of original masonry - why change masonry by adding to it what obviously is a controversial topic even amongst us masons. If we cannot agree on it and it was never part of the original Masonic design/tradition (even if it does add to masonry on an esoteric level to some) why try to defend it? (Genuine question not a pointing of fingers). The path of least resistance I speak of - does not mean no resistance - just the path our ancient Masonic bros walked - without adding or taking away, we should be able move from rough ashlars to perfected ones as well. While baphomet is a great subject to chat about over coffee or in a board like so, I don't know about in a lodge? Maybe it can have its place in a well moderated discussion at lodge I don't know... but why bring it up, there have been master masons, even 33rd degree ones, who understood the astral plane and alchemy without Baphomet to meditate upon in the past. Just remember religion evolved to the war machine it is, because people kept adding to it and taking away – if it remained pure we all would have a collective understanding of T.G.A.O.T.U. My opinion of Masonry is to keep it pure and stop adding stuff that wasn’t there to begin with. (With the exception of the evolution of scientific understanding that is). As an end and I shall probably not say anymore on this topic… while ‘x’ is the variable, the mathematical principals acting on it are constant. Let x be our ‘initiate’ (variable) and let mathematics represent the Masonic principals – I am happy that Baphomet is part of ‘x’s’ set of values and not Masonic principal… does that make sense?
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Post by fractal3rd on Oct 4, 2011 7:23:44 GMT
Hey hi Mat,
lol, don't apologise for your point of view - thats okay... I was reading the responses when I could - its good to think out the box. But I guess for me who is still stuck on logic and reason and has yet to move to the higher astral planes, I think, if masonry is older than Baphomet - which we have kinda established; and the codex gigas is younger than all the above mentioned this must imply that Masonry's secret was independent of Baphomet or gigas - dare I say it, alot has been added onto masonry - as a LDH member, I can't imagine that ALL we do was all part of the ancient masonic ritual (yes woman were not part of the ancient ritual either I know)... some of it was added with whatever intention - so, I think the concept of Baphomet could be added - but I don't think it belongs in ancient Freemasonry. Since, I adore the path of least resistance then meditating on Baphomet should add to what the ancient Masons taught - no elaborate rituals just allagorical truth that any true seeker would find in plain view - now we have over thought the path of least resistance to the point where even the true seeker is well and truely lead astray...why?
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 29, 2011 14:29:15 GMT
So exciting to learn new things especially when it alters ones life - so Dreamsailor75, lemme know where the stone is I will make a pilgramage to see it. If it is literal like you say then I wanna see it for myself. If its literal then I don't need reach any higher planes or dimesions to see it. 90 degrees for me as a mathematician means the addiotn of another plane/dimension - hence a whole new world to analyse... What does the stone mean tho, are you leaning towards a christian belief system? ? Does the stone have a name other than green stone - is it ever mentioned in any ancient texts? very strange my Mulsim friend was telling me the other day about the black stone he would get to kiss on Mecca pilgramage - he said its in you bible too and I said Nope its not! At least not in a literall sense... maybe I was wrong...
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 28, 2011 5:59:10 GMT
Thanks guys
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 28, 2011 5:51:24 GMT
Hello again.
I can only explain my own experience - I have always been intrigued by Masonary, we used to rent in a place where the land Lord was a Mason and he liked my dad so he let us stay free. but my earliest memories were of him and my dad talking about masonary. Anyhoo being that I am a woman I knew I couldn't ever join - at least I thought I could not. I found mtself on the British Federation website and was blown away at the propect that woman could join. they fowarded my excliamation to the South African people and I met with a Mason over coffee, and we chatted 2 and a 1/2 hrs and she said nothing about joining we met another 8 times over the next 2 years (yes 2 yrs) then she finally said I really think you ought to join and I thought yes I waiting for you to ask - thing is I will never push myself anywhere and I guess she was waiting for me to ask. So my point if I have one, is sometimes some people need to be asked - as they find it offensive to invite themselves in (like me - I wanted to be asked) so I think when you know someone has good intentions then maybe ask them if they would consider it. Else they could be 2 yrs in the waiting...
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 19, 2011 15:21:20 GMT
Hello again, Completely understand symbols having the ability to allow us to creat new insights of the world around us. that is great! Like I said there are still heaps to allow free thinking about. I am a Mathamatician/Statistican hence algebra would be you talking my language - while you are correct and it does allow for deeper insights and new theorems; the base and symbols in aglebra are fixed, there are docrines/rules which always hold true - (NO dividsion by zero this is undefined you can do it but its non-sensical) Whilst I believe all are entiled to eachs opinion, what I am saying is there should be a base that is fixed like in algebra and calculus (a base that was created and given meaning but is understood to be the same by all and not open to various interpretation - x squared has only one derivative and only one intergal although x itself can be whatever we like, within the bounds of the numberline we are using). Again there are fucntional rules/doctrine that govern all intergartion and all differntiation in Calculus. This is what I am saying of Masonry - there should be functional rules - if Baphomet is not part of Masonic tradition then don't even try to tie up the circle within a circle to it. Make it doctrine that the God of Free Masonry is not Satan! Don't leave such things up to the readers mind. Define what Satan is and show that masonry isn't this in no uncertain terms. Btw I did not say Baphomet is mentioned in lodge it was a bad example I am saying there should a rule to say that this sort of thing has nothing to do with true masonry especially since it came well after masory anyways. Well gents it has been a blast chatting I do enjoy learning new things thats why I joined this forum and my lodge. Please, know that I do value such chats and learn alot during them. Heads up I do enjoy playing devils advocate sometimes. . Have a great day/night where ever you are. AND GO BOKKE!!!!!!!
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 19, 2011 13:44:03 GMT
Okay, doctrine was created by religion (or vice versa) which mainly has evolved away from the true "Doctrine" (one must believe that there was a true doctrine), whether that is God created the heavens and earth and said let there be light or it was produced out of the naval of a deity... the point is something happened to create stuff (as an example)... someone or two at the beginig of time knew what this was and somehow it became different doctrine to different people - I am saying, surely Masonry had a pure "doctrine" for want of a better word (I understand doctrines like the world being flat etc. these were theories that needed to be debated). I understand your saying that Baphomet has no place in Masonry but you cannot guarantee that other lodges and indeed people who hold views similar to Matt, don't influence the teachings of a lodge a certain way. Or place such arguments in people’s minds as a matter of opinion. Perhaps this is a silly example but let us the use the pentacle and/or hexagram, Masonry has a specific use of it - and to pagans there is still a different use, and to Satanists still even a different use. Here Masonry explains its use, thus this is Masonic Doctrine - I don't think you can escape the fact that most things do become doctrine when they are understood and believed - I am saying let us understand one meaning of the major craft belief system and symbols - yes make that doctrine - but not everything there is still heaps to interpret differently and have opinions over. So make it doctrine not to reference Baphomet in a lodge meeting, exactly the way Jesus' name is dis-allowed in a lodge, so as not to offend - that IS doctrine! Whichever way you look at it.
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 19, 2011 11:15:04 GMT
Hello again good conversation don't be worried, I don't usually accept everything I hear, infact the MPCG of our lodge must be quote exhausted at my questions. But let me concede I am just an initiate into Masonry, and know very little of its true and sacred meanings (in spite of reading as much as I do – I have read all of Moral and Dogma), however, of the Bible (especially), Quran, Kabala and Vedas I know a great deal. I am familiar with the translation issues surrounding Lucifer in the Bible... My point is still that people view Lucifer as the devil all be it fallaciously, it is still fact in their minds as maybe the case with Baphomet - all I am saying is that there ought to be some major belief facts of Masonry that are fixed and not open to interpretation - therein is where all manner confusion and controversy (viz. Baphomet) come in. I had a conversation with one of the members of our lodge before joining asking about the interpretation of things and the fact that I will hear everyone’s interpretation of the ritual but I want to ultimately, hear Masonry’s interpretation. There must have been one true meaning to things at the beginning. You know, this is how religion kept evolving cos people kept adding and taking away from the original. If true, pure meanings were kept then interpretations would be passed down from Master to initiate without people adding in bits about Baphomet and Satan and Lucifer and stuff... You must understand these questions come from a place within me that worries that the higher levels do have Baphomet etc.… as an instrument of worship – It put me as ease when you said this was not so, then I felt uneasy at the progression of the thread knowing that some masons do pull in all sorts of imagery into their Masonic beliefs… Since we are tolerant of all, then this will always be the case, but where does one draw the line and say – well Baphomet can’t be part of Masonic belief because…, At least on this, you must agree there is fine line?
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 19, 2011 6:36:48 GMT
Whistler Whistler Whistler LOL I like you, you're funny, how you doing... this last weekend was a revelation wasn't it - the Springboks gave Fiji such a hiding! 49-3 was it? I lost count Doesn't that make you nervious mate... Huw - I just understood masonry to only accept men who belive in a God whatever He be. If that has changed then I feel that the principals on which the craft was founded are being slwoly eroded.
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 19, 2011 6:21:56 GMT
Hello all I was the original poster of this topic and this is was really erks me about Free masonry (even tho I joined). The original installers of the craft must have had one ultimate meaning for what they depicted kinaesthetically by plays and ritual - surely it could not be left to the imagination of the 1 year old - as the initiate is just 1 degree higher than being a cowan and knows very little. How can he make of free masonry what he will? And if he does 33 degrees later thats supposition becomes authority?
Now if Baphomet is indeed perceived as evil by the masses hence we will not adopt it or acknowledge it in free Masonic teachings, then how can we adopt and substantiate Lucifer in our teachings since the vast majority including Muslims and Hindus believe him or know him to be the devil? There are some facts that freemasonry needs to cast in stone so such topics are not allowed to be conceived and blown up in the mind of those who read heaps of books and find connections in everything - there must be some things that free masonry indeed does not mean to imply and never did, but are being interpreted by many of its proponents falsely. And to that end it should not be called FREE masonry but masonry - it is my opinion that our founding fathers whoever they were, meant specific interpretations and I guess they would be disgusted to see where masonry has ended up, having initiated Alistair Crowley into the highest levels of the craft knowing him to be a Satanist of note and the most evil man of the century.
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 16, 2011 5:50:32 GMT
HI everyone,
I am South African, I belong to LDH - and we have managed to keep the traditional ritual by Annie Bessant. Anyhoo, if one is to say that tradition is not being kept well by other LDH lodges - then we must go back to the purest form of Masonry, of the Male Craft and that certainly does not have the Annie Bessant elaborate workings in it. However, LDH allows acceptance of those who don't believe in a supreme being, I do wish this would change this one thing. But thats my opionion.
O! btw way Whistler, The BOKKE are gonna win again! Yay! "Its the world in Union, the world as one. As we climb to reach our destiny. A new age has begun..."
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 8, 2011 6:02:16 GMT
Thanks for this was very infromative - I did not think very many peopel had heard of the Codex Gigas. Also as a new initiate it makes me feel alot better that Baphomet doe not find its way into Masonic belief.
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 6, 2011 9:19:15 GMT
thanks for this I have read Morals and Dogma (Yes I did - even when I wasn't a mason) I did not remeber these quotes in the link although it was a big book - I googled the M&D and searched for these phrases and you're right they are not there. Interesting. However, Pike does mention the whole Lucifer thing tho. I thnk he was a misunderstood guy. So it is established that Baphomet is never mentioned in a masonic ritual? Is that right?
But Still Baphomet makes its appearance for the first time - I understand - when the Codex Gigas was found in the Czech Rep. This was a copy of the Bible separated by a picture of Baphomet then a number of spells and incantations, herbal remedies etc...
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 5, 2011 7:03:31 GMT
I was wondering what the baphomet has to do with freemasonry (if anything at all) – and what its significance is. I recall watching a documentary some time ago – on the Codex Gigas which mentioned the baphomet – the origins of this book are quite strange. I tried to understand when the first mention of this figure came to light its very difficult to get accurate info - Iknow some say the knights templars had a connection to it...?
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 1, 2011 8:09:50 GMT
Thank you very much - I had my first instruction session last Sunday as well was starnge but cool I guess
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Post by fractal3rd on Sept 1, 2011 7:45:14 GMT
Hello there,
from what I understand - as I am a new initiate to co-free... remember that if there are holidays and the council meetings have been postponed then the next meet will only be in a month or how ever many weeks that lodge sets for their next meetings. There needs to be a seconder - who will have to meet you before hand and then the decesions are taken - I suspect that getting everyones dairies insinc is whats prologning procedures. Don't stress - the Rosicrusians say that when you are ready a teacher will find you - not the other way around
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Post by fractal3rd on Aug 30, 2011 7:24:47 GMT
There are so many things to understand just within the first degree alone. But like that Great Devine teacher said... "Ask and you will receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be open." He also said "for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." Masonary I believe tries to keep this tradition in opening the door to those who really seek, knock and ask. So why unravel the secrets of life and the Universe alone, when you could unravel them in the presence of like minded Brothers and Sisters and in the presence of God who made the Universe Himself? If there were no secrets to find life would be boring. Remember, to know a secret or thing, and to understand it; are 2 very different things . So in all you asking ask for wisdom and in all you seek, seek knowledge and in all your knocking, knock on the door of UNDERSTANDING... even if you think you know the major secrets of masonary.
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Post by fractal3rd on Aug 25, 2011 13:07:03 GMT
Hey there, not sure how many rugga fans there are on this forum but the World Cup is around the corner - We in SA can't wait ;D
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Post by fractal3rd on Aug 23, 2011 6:09:07 GMT
Hi all, I was just initiated into LDH co-freemasonry on Saturday. I would love to hear other brother' experiences of initiation.
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