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Post by lihin on Apr 12, 2007 7:14:00 GMT
Greetings, Here is a quote from the Le Droit Humain[/url], an organisation promoting co-masonry, website, Article VI of their statutes in the English translation: For Le Droit Humain participants, apparently more numerous at this forum than at some others, does the quoted text mean: 1. That debates and discussions on social or religious questions are permitted in LDH proceedings? 2. That "social questions" include political questions, as was so understood and applied in irregular organisations in 19th and 20th century France?
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 12, 2007 8:10:48 GMT
[/url], an organisation promoting co-masonry, website, Article VI of their statutes in the English translation: For Le Droit Humain participants, apparently more numerous at this forum than at some others, does the quoted text mean: 1. That debates and discussions on social or religious questions are permitted in LDH proceedings? 2. That "social questions" include political questions, as was so understood and applied in irregular organisations in 19th and 20th century France?[/quote] lihin, lihin, lihin What is your point? What is your purpose? Restoring your quote to its proper context, we read: While the last words on their last page read: Thus, their position appears to be no different to what is practiced in mainstream lodges throughout the world. While one can appreciate the oft heard argument that the personal is political, in practice the prohibition on political discussion is usually understood to refer to party politics (otherwise even debate as to which charity to support could be deemed political) and in practice the prohibition on religious discussion has usually been understood to refer both to denigration and to proselytization (otherwise many aspects touching upon Freemasonry would be out of bounds).
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Post by middlepillar on Apr 12, 2007 8:29:03 GMT
For Le Droit Humain participants, apparently more numerous at this forum than at some others, does the quoted text mean: Greetings Lihin I have to ask why do you Post here, it seems to me that all you are trying to do is get LDH members to admit to being irregular. And if that is your aim I do not understand why? As a normal UGLE Mason I find this part of your post offensive, you would/should have to know the history of this Forum and all the other Forums before making such a crass statement. I for one take a great deal of pride in the fact that we have so many members from all masonic Grand Lodges, for not only is it great to be able to talk with these brethren it is a delight to be able to learn more about masonry universal. I would like to suggest you get off whatever high horse you are riding and join in the real ride. Or is it simply that you know all there is to know and dont want to associate with us mere mortals
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Post by maat on Apr 13, 2007 0:22:32 GMT
Good Morning lihin
Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth - how can one ACT upon these precepts without first thinking about them and then discussing them with like minded people? Debates on social issues that need address would be just the first stage of being truly helpful. I know LDH has a special project to help orphans in Africa right now. My husbands Freemasonry is concentrating on men's health issues currently. My Freemasonry is providing some assistance with the mental health issues of some Sudanese refugees in our local area. I am sure that every mason reading this could add their own special project. Collective concern for others can achieve greater results in some areas. We NEED to discuss social issues.
Re religious questions - seeking the Light is viewed by most people as a religious subject. I don't agree with this tag, but as lots of people have trouble differentiating the Spirit from the Soul, they also seem to have some problem with differentiating between a Spiritual pursuit(the search for the Light of Pure Spirit, which is a natural yearning) and Religious pursuits (which are various systems of worship concerned with the spiritual or inner life of man).
I remember one conversation about a particular religious system and masonry not so long ago, it was about a comparison between the seven sacraments in Catholicism, the seven chakras from eastern belief systems an the seven officers in a lodge. Quite and interesting topic I may assure you.
"In proceeding to the contemplation of the mysteries of knowledge, we shall adhere to the celebrated and venerable rule of tradition, commencing from the origin of the universe, setting forth those points of physical contemplation which are necessary to be premised, and removing whatever can be an obstacle on the way; so that the ear may be prepared for the reception of the tradition of the Gnosis, the ground being cleared of weeds and fitted for the planting of the vineyard; for there is a conflict before the conflict, and mysteries before the mysteries.
— S.Clement of Alexandria.
Tradition would dictate that we look for the lost in all traditions.
The New Agers are the new seekers and as will already be apparent to anyone who has stepped inside one of the many New Age bookstores, the movement is like a great river fed by many tributaries: the Hermetic and alchemical traditions of Europe, mediated sometimes by Carl Jung; the Neo-Platonism of the Renaissance or of Sufism; popularized Vedanta, Buddhism, and Taoism with the embroideries of Madame Blavatsky; Gnosticism, witchcraft, Kabbalah, Yoga and so on. Leave no stone unturned...
Cheers Maat
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Apr 13, 2007 0:42:31 GMT
Yup, a good many of the conversations I have with my brethren touch upon politics and religion. But, always, lovingly and fraternally.
As for Bro. Lihin and his continued use of the hated "I" word . . .
(gently and carefully)
Bro. Lihin, I *want* to believe you are being sincere in your questions and that most of the trouble you get into is because you genuinely don't understand what you mean by "irregular". I know I've tried (as have others) to explain to you why being called "irregular" is sooooo fraggin' annoying. And given my general weariness over the subject, I'm rather amazed to find I've (maybe) finally hit on an analogy that might help you understand.
So, in a fraternal desire to assist you, and for no other reason, I'm going to try, once more. And then I will, once again, retire from the subject (for it *is* tiresome).
Questions can, at times, be unfairly asked. One such is "Do you still kick your dog"? Let's say you don't kick your dog. Never have. And, in fact, you have no plans to start kicking your dog. Why, anyone who knows you would realize you are not a dog kicking person. You feel very comfortable in this knowledge and feel utterly no need to verify it to anyone.
Well, let's say your neighbor, one day, asks you "Do you still kick your dog"? And you reply to him, very sensibly, "I've never kicked my dog". And yet this same neighbor persists that you are a dog kicker, whether you perceive yourself to be or not; that everyone just knows you are a dog kicker and that you might as well accept it, a dog kicker is what you are.
In future conversations, this neighbor punctuates his comments to you with references to this condition of your's. He asks you questions like "How do dog kickers such as yourself feel about the current Sino-Eurasian relations?" "As a dog kicker, I'm sure you must have an opinion about the price of pork chops in Greenland." "Do all dog kickers spread the jelly before the peanut butter?" "When dog kickers go to church . . .?"
As time goes on, you are less and less likely to feel especially sensible. In fact, you'll more than likely start to want to kick *him*. And if he continues to persist, you very likely will kick him.
Once you do, finally, kick him, he'll be aghast that you did such a thing. After all, he was just calling you what he fully believes you are.
Which you aren't.
And he'll be amazed at your utter lack of acceptance of this lie about yourself.
My dear Bro. Lihin, the fact that you are dealing here with brothers, and not (necessarily) neighbors probably explains why your shins are not yet bruised.
Now imagine how any of the brethren take it (and we're not just talking about Co-Masons here) when they are called "irregular".
Now hold that thought.
Bro. Lihin, for what feels like the gizzabillionth - but will be the last from me to you - time . . . that two grand lodges don't have amity agreements with each other, and label each other "irregular", in NO WAY means that *any* of the brethren in either obedience are anything but regular.
And to refer to them as irregular is insulting and most unfair.
Now, you might want to pursue me on this one but I won't speak another word to you about it.
I'd rather discuss the Graham Manuscript (and if anyone knows where to find a copy of the Graham Manuscript . . . please, please,please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, oh please tell me. The first one who tells my how I may get it into my eager little hands gets cookies ;D )
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Post by maat on Apr 13, 2007 0:42:54 GMT
... maybe of interest, maybe not...
LE DROIT HUMAIN INTERNATIONAL
The International Order of Co-Freemasonry "LE DROIT HUMAIN" (which roughly translated means Human Rights) was built out of a marvellous dream, to unite humanity despite all the barriers, ethnic groups, geopolitics, religions and cultures. It has about 27,000 members spread throughout 60 countries in the world, and on 5 continents. Each national Federation is self-governing and Lodges work in their native language.
An International Convention is held every five years in Paris, where delegates elect the Supreme Council. The Supreme Council, in its turn, elects its committee whose members are called "Officers", and its President "the Grand Master".
***********************
Similar in many respects to your own literature - Le Droit Humain maintains that Freemasonry was born out of the Master builders of cathedrals who travelled continuously from one building site to another, freeing themselves of the authority of the corporations, of the nobility and the Church.
The importance and influence of these Free-Masons developed from the 12th to 14th centuries but thereafter gradually faded out until the dawn of the Renaissance. This was when Galileo, basing himself on science and mathematics, opened up a new world for the research workers of his time, and proved that the Universe seemed infinite. As we are all know, science progressed rapidly at this time in history and soon a separation was established between the dogma of religion and the world of reason. Man started to see that the Universe seemed to operate according to immovable rules - this led to the notion of a Creator like a "Grand Clockmaker" or a "Grand Architect".
In the 18th century, two events were to make for the development of speculative masonry.
• First - there was a marked secularisation. This secularisation contained a base on which all men could agree: Deism - a kind of natural religion, free of all inhibition and seeking happiness for all mankind. • Second - a tendency for universality which showed itself through an increasing appreciation of the thoughts of the Enlightened which was characterised by the respect for tolerance and fraternity. The French Revolution went on to consecrate this state of mind, which was manifested by many masons, with the defence of the Rights of Mankind and of the Citizen and the rejection of all dogmatism. This rejection of all dogmatism will probably explain why, in the French workings (which are different to our Australian workings) they do not display a V.S.L. or work to the Greater Glory of the Architect - they work solely "to the Perfection of Humanity". Here in the Australian Federation we work the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite and work both to the Greater Glory of the Architect AND to the Perfection of Humanity.
This brings us to the 19th century. The 19th century proved to be the battleground for the extension of many rights, but most notably, a mutual respect for the thoughts of other people and the right of women to obtain equal civic rights.
It is with this background that, by creating the International Order of Co-Freemasonry "LE DROIT HUMAIN", Maria Deraismes and Georges Martin were going to shatter the established order of many centuries and begin the liberation of women. Maria Deraismes (1828-1894) Georges Martin (1844-1916) Maria Deraismes was a journalist and fighter for the rights of women and children and Dr. Georges Martin was a Senator, a General Councillor for the Dept of the Seine and a Municipal Councillor of Paris who undertook campaigns in favour of:
• the civic and political rights of women • the defence of the rights of oppressed children • opposition to clerical intolerance • the establishment of a neutral school respecting the ideas of everyone.
Maria Deraismes was proposed, approved and duly initiated - on 14th January 1882 - into Lodge "Les Libres Penseurs" of Pecq, a small village to the west of Paris. Whilst having the support of many of the members of the Lodge I do believe that she underwent similar experiences to the first female Rotarians and Lions when they were finally accepted into those respective organisations - that being - she was well accepted by the more enlightened but rejected out of hand by others - merely because of her sex.
Eleven years later, on 4th April 1893, Maria Deraismes and Georges Martin, who was himself a well known mason, created the first Co-Masonic Lodge in Paris which firmly established the equality of men and women. It was out of this Co-Masonic Lodge that the International Order of Co-Freemasonry "LE DROIT HUMAIN" was born.
Maria Deraismes died on 6th February 1894, and the task of organising and developing "LE DROIT HUMAIN" fell on Dr. Martin. His energetic will placed him beyond frontiers, ethnic groups, religions and cultures, and he very quickly founded Lodges in Switzerland and in England. The Order then spread throughout Europe before sowing itself in other parts of the world.
Maat
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Post by maat on Apr 13, 2007 1:08:24 GMT
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Apr 13, 2007 1:37:14 GMT
Sweet!!
And soooooo faved. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
I really, really am trying to find the Graham Manuscript. But . . . wow. Talking about it is cool, too ;D
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 13, 2007 1:50:01 GMT
And he'll be amazed at your utter lack of acceptance of this lie about yourself. Similarly, there is the oft repeated declaration that there were no women Stonemasons
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Apr 13, 2007 4:32:37 GMT
A delight to read!
Just a tiny correction, Maat - In France LDH does not seem to use the sentence: "To the Perfection of Humanity". Rather, this is an English re-orientation of the French "To the Progress of Humanity" (a better translation of the French 'Progress' would be 'advancement' or 'improvement').
The difference in usage is subtle, but important, in that the term 'perfection' is more goal oriented (which of course has its journey), whereas 'progress' journey oriented (with any goal to be established by the journey itself).
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Post by cezarek on Apr 13, 2007 6:23:30 GMT
A delight to read! Just a tiny correction, Maat - In France LDH does not seem to use the sentence: "To the Perfection of Humanity". Rather, this is an English re-orientation of the French "To the Progress of Humanity" (a better translation of the French 'Progress' would be 'advancement' or 'improvement'). The difference in usage is subtle, but important, in that the term 'perfection' is more goal oriented (which of course has its journey), whereas 'progress' journey oriented (with any goal to be established by the journey itself). Any international organisation, working in different languages, has the problem of imperfect (irregular ;D) translation. For example, 'Le Droit Humain', has a meaning in French that translates to English as something like 'The Human Condition', rather than 'human rights'. 'The lot of humanity' would be quite close though neither of these are truly cognate. French is a wonderfully abstract language. As I understand it, each national federation of DH (DH, I think, is the preferred abbreviation, rather than LDH) has quite a lot of autonomy. This includes translation, and remember that DH exists in more than 70 countries. Where I live we use 'to the GAOTU and the progress of humanity', though the word that translates as 'progress' also has the idea of advancement. These issues of translation exist across all forms of Freemasonry, regardless of such issues as recognition/regularity, gender etc. By the way Maat, I really enjoyed your point about spirit/soul. When people suggest that religion is discussed in certain lodges, we can make the same comparison about the distinction between holy/sacred. A lodge is certainly sacred space. Holy it isn't.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Apr 13, 2007 6:27:26 GMT
I dunno. I recall a point in which we are told that our lodges stand on holy ground.
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Post by cezarek on Apr 13, 2007 6:36:11 GMT
I dunno. I recall a point in which we are told that our lodges stand on holy ground. Wow. I wonder if that refers to the days when our operative lodges were erected in the shadow of the great (half-finished) cathedrals?
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Post by lihin on Apr 15, 2007 8:13:26 GMT
Greetings, Cordial thanks to those who have sincerely answered or attempted to answer the questions in the initial post. To the others a smile of appreciation.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 15, 2007 8:58:52 GMT
For the sake of others, I was glad to assist.
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imakegarb
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Post by imakegarb on Apr 15, 2007 18:04:35 GMT
I dunno. I recall a point in which we are told that our lodges stand on holy ground. Wow. I wonder if that refers to the days when our operative lodges were erected in the shadow of the great (half-finished) cathedrals? Oooooooh. Now THERE'S a thought ;D
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Apr 15, 2007 23:30:12 GMT
...you mean... there was Freemasonry BEFORE 1717 ( )
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Post by corab on Apr 16, 2007 12:06:42 GMT
Now that is pure speculation, and everyone knows we don't do that. ;D
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Post by whistler on Apr 17, 2007 5:03:31 GMT
[/url], an organisation promoting co-masonry, website, Article VI of their statutes in the English translation: For Le Droit Humain participants, apparently more numerous at this forum than at some others, does the quoted text mean: 1. That debates and discussions on social or religious questions are permitted in LDH proceedings? 2. That "social questions" include political questions, as was so understood and applied in irregular organisations in 19th and 20th century France?[/quote] Another Curious Posting. Whilst in our temple and the lodge is working there is not a possiblity to Debate anything, at Supper any polite conversation is acceptable , we certainly can and do chat about social and religious subjects - debate no we wouldn't do that we are all friends who share opinions, - Once again Lihin, give your heart a chance with your Freemasonry - you will find it makes Freemasonry much more sense than searching through old rule books
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Post by lihin on May 5, 2007 16:22:37 GMT
Greetings,
Yours truly, in this and other questions, accepts that not only the compass but also the square and the ruler are symbols of the Craft.
Interestingly enough in the context of several threads of this forum, the former is usually understood to represent the Active or Male Principle, the latter the Passive or Female Principle. However, not the former but rather the latter symbols have more to do with rules and regulations.
Of course, as has been indicated in yet another parallel thread here, all manifestations require intimate, immediate co-existence and interaction of both Principles. Rules and regulations are manifest.
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