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Post by penfold on Oct 19, 2007 15:16:45 GMT
That point has been made repeatedly JMD, but seems to have been ignored in the squabbling
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Post by corab on Oct 19, 2007 18:11:51 GMT
If say a Gay Male, were to approach and ask to join the group, I am confident that my wife and her friends would view this with a deal of suspicion. Now that is not a popular thing to say, but it is an honest appraisal of what might happen. Now you could say the same about a Straight Female who would ask to join the group, I believe the wives would be suspicious of the reasons she wanted to join. I've heard that argument before, but in a slightly different context. Setting: The Prestonian Lecture 2005: Women in Freemasonry The Question: Why is it that some believe women cannot be freemasons? The Answer: Because the male Brother's wife would be jealous if her husband would show a more beautiful woman than her around the Temple ... I KID YOU NOT -- that was the answer. My response: (a) Whatever happened to trust in a relationship, and (b) I thought we were supposed to "keep down all vein and unbecoming thoughts, so that our feelings and actions may be pure and unpolluted". The relevance to your question? Well, it simply does not work that way. I can understand it is difficult to understand for one who works his craft in a single-gender environment, but gender and sexual orientation are irrelevant. I cannot explain that, I cannot reason it, and I cannot make you understand -- it is something that can only be understood by experiencing it. Well, as per the above ... the only way you'll ever come anywhere understanding it is by experiencing it. So if you ever do get a chance to attend an open ceremony of any one of the 3 co-masonic orders working in the UK, grab your chance -- it's worth your while. S&F, Cora
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Post by corab on Oct 19, 2007 18:14:42 GMT
I see your a little smarter now your a Master Mason ..... your going to love my next question. I look forward to it already.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 19, 2007 21:01:11 GMT
Well Cora I may get bashed a round a bit, but I am trying to understand.
But you have to make allowances after all I am only a man.
Should your avatar now have a MM apron on?
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 19, 2007 21:22:55 GMT
I can agree with Bro Cora here. When I am in the Temple I simply do not think of the female Brethren in a sexual context any more than I would have thought of the male Brethren in such a way when in an UGLE Lodge.
Picking up on one point made by Bro Bill. I have NEVER had any time for "Special Pleading" , "Positive Discrimination" "Affirmative Action" etc. as far as I am concerned equality means just that. Now I do not cannonise minorities of any type nor accord them the status of "victim". Yes there are some lovely people who are Homosexuals, there are also some right nasty bast@rds too. Similary I have met some wonderful Blacks and some real rotters, some of the Disabled who are charming and some who are miserable bad tempered sods who thinnk the World owes them an apology. There is good and bad in every category of person. I try to judge the content and not the wrapping.
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Post by corab on Oct 19, 2007 22:49:07 GMT
Well Cora I may get bashed a round a bit, but I am trying to understand. I know that , but as I was typing my previous response I realised that it's one of those things that you have to experience to be able to truly understand -- just like freemasonry. You can read the ritual; heck, you can even read Darkness Visible, but it still is nowt but words on paper. Same thing with "understanding co-freemasonry" -- you can read about it, talk about it, try to grasp it ... and not for all your masonic experience will you do so unless you've been there and have experienced it. And the same goes for malecraft and feminine masonry taken from my perspective, of course. I don't know, should it? S&F, Cora
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Post by Cambuel on Oct 20, 2007 0:46:57 GMT
As an individual that just so happens to be male, biracial and gay, I've personally found Co-Masonry wonderfully INCLUSIVE...which is one reason I was attracted to Co-Masonry in the first place. Neither my racial heritage, nor my sexual orientation, nor my gender have ever been an issue in Co-Masonry...and that is how it should be.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 20, 2007 0:48:39 GMT
Amen to that Brother!
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Post by corab on Oct 20, 2007 7:45:18 GMT
That is very much my experience, Vroiko. I'm a foreigner to these lands myself, and it has never played a role in either lodge or federation. As far as I can tell -- and I am in a position where I can oversee this; I am not just speaking from lodge experience -- the British Federation is completely inclusive.
The absence of dogma and the absolute freedom of conscience are landmarks for our order -- treating a person any differently because of gender or sexual orientation does not fit that profile.
S&F,
Cora
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 20, 2007 9:13:21 GMT
As an individual that just so happens to be male, biracial and gay, I've personally found Co-Masonry wonderfully INCLUSIVE...which is one reason I was attracted to Co-Masonry in the first place. Neither my racial heritage, nor my sexual orientation, nor my gender have ever been an issue in Co-Masonry...and that is how it should be. That is very reassuring to hear, thank you for taking part Bro. That however brings up another issue, did you find Co Masonry more open in order for you to find out more of what happens inside the Lodge. because Male Craft have a tradition of being a bit closed mouth.
I mean in theory you should not have been able to find out too much before joining, so I wondered how your approach went.
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Post by Cambuel on Oct 20, 2007 15:04:21 GMT
As far as I can tell -- and I am in a position where I can oversee this; I am not just speaking from lodge experience -- the British Federation is completely inclusive. Cora, I have found the same here in our American Federation of LDH.
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Post by Cambuel on Oct 20, 2007 15:19:34 GMT
That however brings up another issue, did you find Co Masonry more open in order for you to find out more of what happens inside the Lodge. because Male Craft have a tradition of being a bit closed mouth.
I mean in theory you should not have been able to find out too much before joining, so I wondered how your approach went.Are you asking was Co-Masonry more "open" in that I was told about the work done within the Lodge? If so, then most definitely not. Inclusiveness is not the same as divulging about the work in Lodge. I actually initially came to Freemasonry through "Male Craft" Masonry. Without going into specifics (and not wanting to start a huge discussion of such) I had certain experiences that made me extremely uncomfortable. That combined with some soul-searching and resultant spiritual guidance, I was led to Co-Freemasonry.
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Post by billmcelligott on Oct 20, 2007 18:42:33 GMT
Yes I wondered about the word used Inslusive and in what sense. Thanks thats makes it clearer. I had not realized you moved over from Male Craft.
We have heard from people who have moved from Co to Male Craft and from people who have moved from Male to Co. I think that is healthy.
If everyone is being honest when they say , Freemasonry is the concept we wish to support , the fact that there are different versions of Freemasonry should , in theory not make any difference.
I made a point on another thread here, that the job of cement is to hold the bricks apart not stick them together. But in doing so it makes the strongest of brick walls.
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Post by lauderdale on Oct 20, 2007 21:34:55 GMT
Bro Vroiko, that something we have in common. I too was originally a Malecraft Mason, for 18 years indeed, then I also made the same change.
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Post by whistler on Oct 22, 2007 1:54:07 GMT
As an individual that just so happens to be male, biracial and gay, I've personally found Co-Masonry wonderfully INCLUSIVE...which is one reason I was attracted to Co-Masonry in the first place. Neither my racial heritage, nor my sexual orientation, nor my gender have ever been an issue in Co-Masonry...and that is how it should be. and Vroiko you would be welcome in our Lodge - Not as a curiosity just simply because you are a Human with pure intent
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Post by whistler on Oct 22, 2007 1:59:11 GMT
whistler I have no idea what if anything you wish to add to this dicussion other than spoiling it. Perhaps when you have an original idea or even an original sentance you will PM me so I dont miss it. Bill if the person who was joining your trivia group whose difference was their girth - Would it be even worth a topic of conversation
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Post by sniffles on Feb 14, 2008 5:22:52 GMT
There is nothing in the Rituals, Landmarks, or Constitution which prevents Gay people from becoming Masons... but
It depends on the demographics of the Lodge the would be petitioner is seeking membership in...
If he is open about his orientation, and the majority of the lodge are a bunch of old sourpuss conservative christian - republicans - all it will take is one cube.
Then in the same kind of lodges their is the issue of the Great Light of Masonry - the Bible upon which the would be Gay candidate is taking his oath on - I don't think I have to point out what the Bible says about this topic.
The issue of the Great Light is twofold - 1) if the gay candidate does take his oath on the Bible - it defies our Third Cardinal Virtue: Truth... that is to be True to yourself... 2) in a lodge of sourpuss conservatives - the Bible is the Rule.
This is unfortunately a very sensitive issue at my lodge... but then again, I don't believe I've ever met a Democrat hailing from my lodge either.... on that note:
May God make McCain President... anyone but Hillary, please. I don't ask for much.
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Feb 14, 2008 8:16:48 GMT
Then in the same kind of lodges their is the issue of the Great Light of Masonry - the Bible upon which the would be Gay candidate is taking his oath on - I don't think I have to point out what the Bible says about this topic. Accusations of homosexuality have ever been tediously typical add-ons to accusations of heresy, possibly lest finer points of theological objections were lost on the wider public and so as to sway them with salacious moral panics. It was the case with the priesthood of Asherah, and with the early church, the Albigensians (from a sect of which we trace the term "buggery"), to the Knights Templar and even Freemasons have been suspected of such because of our homosocial exclusion of women. One finds the priests and priestesses of Asherah were designated respectively as the "Kadosh" and the "Kadoshah", meaning "holy," although these have been translated as "sodomites" and "prostitutes". The Masonic group designated as "Kadosh," in the ne plus ultra degree, prefer the former meaning in reference to themselves.
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Post by lauderdale on Feb 14, 2008 9:31:27 GMT
In my part of Freemasonry I can think of nothing to prevent a Homosexual or a Lesbian becoming a member. The Bible is not the only VSL on our Altar so the Leviticus Ch8 V22 prohibition is not absolute, any more than the Jewish or Islamic Dietary Laws or the latter's ban on drinking alcohol. The Candidate will be judged on their character and if of good report their sexuality is not an issue.
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Post by whistler on Feb 14, 2008 9:53:09 GMT
In my part of Freemasonry I can think of nothing to prevent a Homosexual or a Lesbian becoming a member. The Bible is not the only VSL on our Altar so the Leviticus Ch8 V22 prohibition is not absolute, any more than the Jewish or Islamic Dietary Laws or the latter's ban on drinking alcohol. The Candidate will be judged on their character and if of good report their sexuality is not an issue. Exactly
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