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Post by leonardo on Nov 14, 2004 23:00:40 GMT
I would welcome an explaination on this subject. I have some notion from stuff I've been reading on this board, but an over view would be appreciated.
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Post by whistler on Nov 15, 2004 1:10:32 GMT
I would welcome an explaination on this subject. I have some notion from stuff I've been reading on this board, but an over view would be appreciated. Leo, I think this is just too hard to answer, IMO when people see something their background doesn't permit them to see it becomes esoteric.. If you have an open mind, and don't put limitations, on what is possible - Nothing is esoteric - Everything is eiter understood, or not understood yet. Sorry Leo I can't be more precise and I look forward to other contributions
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Post by Stash on Nov 15, 2004 1:22:29 GMT
the true definitions of "Esoteric + Masonry" and what's actually referred to by "Esoteric Masonry" are two different things.
One dictionary definition of esoteric is : "Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people"
Now, wouldn't basically all masonry then be considered "esoteric masonry" cause there is almost nothing aboutFM that isn't known "by a restricted number of people"
What's actually referred by "esoteric masonry" in my opinion though, is:
A) All masonic lore/ritual dealing with anything other than the hiramic legend. B) perceived connections between FM and ancient mysteries, magik, alchemy, tarot, kaballah, etc etc etc C) Deeper and alternate interpretation of the Hiramic legend itself
that's just my extremely UNeducated opinion
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sarge
Member
peace and harmony
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Post by sarge on Nov 17, 2004 11:13:13 GMT
dictionary describes it simply thus :- quote ; Confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle sarge
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Post by adder on Nov 17, 2004 11:54:46 GMT
B) perceived connections between FM and ancient mysteries, magik, alchemy, tarot, kaballah, etc etc etc If somthing is true then it is true in all languages,and can be stated and,if you speak the language,understood, in all languages. The only connections between Masonry and any other system are those of meaning.
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Post by whistler on Nov 17, 2004 17:34:27 GMT
If somthing is true then it is true in all languages,and can be stated and,if you speak the language,understood, in all languages. . Correct
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Post by Stash on Nov 24, 2004 17:57:06 GMT
The following is all my opinion only
Difference between Symbolical Masonry and Esoteric Masonry, an example
There is no secret that masonry is chock full of symbols. It is often termed "veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols". These symbols, however, are still a basic aspect of even the most laid back lodges, and can be hardly considred an esoteric part of freemasnry.
In this case, I will use the symbol of Hiram Abiff. Hiram is easily one of the most common masonic symbols, whom all masons figuratively take the place of and learn about, especially in their craft masonry. I'm not even going to bother mentioning the details of it, but hiram acts as a symbol for teaching certain values, virtues, tenets, etc etc. You all know the story better than me, so just keep that in mind.
However, the hiramic legend as it is told in ritual and conveyed to the individual mason only comprises the symbolical aspect of freemasonry. The estoeric part is all that goes deeper than the hiramic legend taught through ritual and lecture.
For example, one might pose these questions to take a more esoteric path to understanding the story of hiram abiff
1. Was HA a real man?? If so, was that his name, and why give him a symbolic name?? 2. What connections can we make with the spelling of HA's name?? Does numerology tell us more?? How about if we translate the name first to other languages?? 3. Is there more than coincidence to this principal builder having the same name as the king of Tyre?? 4. Was he the principal architect?? Or merely the head metal worker, does that mean something deeper?? 5. Is hiram merely a character from older lore renamed to suit the times?? 6. Is hiram spoken about in other literature non-masonic??
This list of questions is infinite, limited only by an individual's imagination. AND, this list merely applies to hiram himself as a symbol.. Take any subset of events in ritual, and that subset in particular can be explored in much the same way....not to mention the other hundreds of masonic symbols/entities
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Post by leonardo on Nov 24, 2004 19:39:03 GMT
Stash... Delighted you should speak on Hiram Abif. It is a subject I have become most interested in, especially since reading about him on this site: www.donaldson76.freeserve.co.uk/hiram.htmSome may feel I'm jumping the gun here, running before I can walk, etc. But remember reading a post made by our very own Steve Foley on the other forum stating the importance of gaining knowledge prior to joining. Apologies to you Steve if my memory is making me mis-represent you.
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Post by Yoki on Nov 27, 2004 19:58:29 GMT
Mine is not an explanation on Masonic esotericism but on esotericism as a whole which to my mind is one and the same. The individual is like a cork in the sea of consciousness, they don't know were they are, where they come from, or where they are going and they don't know why. This is from a book I am currently reading called power vs force and for me the search for answers to this question sums up the field of esoteric endeavour. Nor do I believe that this quest is open to a few, an inner circle if you will. Knock and the door will be opened seek and ye shall find goes beyond Masonic initiation or any other group .It encompassed those in many walks of life who have a mired of faiths and beliefs all of whom are walking their own road, all of which have the same destination. This journey can be taken with the help of kabala or tarot, symbols or a lesson in morals, ritual and ceremony but all have the same underlining prepose, to understand the self and to reach for the (metaphoric) stars. It is through this understanding that we came make progress. It starts with an attempt to understand our motivations and to why we often deny, push away, or will not see the truth in any given situation. Often it is not till all avenues are tried and the individual has reached rock bottom that the true nature of their behaviour is understood. When we understand what drives us we are able to do something about those traits and behaviours that are detrimental to our own inner health and to others. There's nothing mysterious about the word esoteric for me it means the search to life's mysteries, and the consequential evolution of our inner being.
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Post by leonardo on Nov 27, 2004 20:48:39 GMT
The individual is like a cork in the sea of consciousness, they don't know were they are, where they come from, or where they are going and they don't know why. Great analogy. Thank you for what is surely the definitive post on the subject so far.
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Nov 28, 2004 1:17:44 GMT
Yoki, this brings to mind that not only are we "corks in the sea" but so are any "perceived" individuals/entities we meet in the "esoteric/occult" realm.
We do not know them from Adam, so must be very disriminatory in whatever weight we put on their communications.
I do feel however that within our Lodge meetings that as there are several "aware" Brn. present a concensus could easily be obtained so that each could come to their own rational conclusions.
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Post by Stash on Nov 28, 2004 21:45:48 GMT
Yoki, I enjoyed your post very much...but there is one part I did take issue wtih. Basically, I don't think esoterism is necessarily confined to man's search for where he came from, where he is going, etc.
I think esoteric matters can encompass much less important things like connections between symbols, or knowledge about anything passed from one civilization to another, etc, etc, etc AS WELL as life's mysteries and beyond
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Post by Yoki on Nov 29, 2004 3:34:54 GMT
Goody Goody a debate,
Stash wrote I think esoteric matters can encompass much less important things like connections between symbols, or knowledge about anything passed from one civilization to another, etc, etc, etc AS WELL as life's mysteries and beyond
What you have to ask your self is what are and why do we use symbols and connections, as far as I know there are two reasons. (I’m always open to learning more). The first is that they actually hold energy, power if you will and an occultist or initiated individual can tap into this reservoir and make use of what's there. The second is the use of symbols to convey meanings lesson etc, that for me is were the self-understanding comes into play. Knowledge passed from one civilization to an other from my way of thinking still deals with the individual, after all they grappled with the same issues as we do today. After I wrote I had a think about what I put down and pulled it apart. There are esoteric subjects that may very well not fit into my definition and the most striking is the nature of a Supreme Being. Offcourse it depends on how you view this entity is it sperate from us or are we all in same mysterious way one. If it’s the later then even this aspect of esotericism is about knowing your self and ultimately growing. This process would then add to the universal mind. This of every thing I have written is total speculation and the most debatable of
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Post by whistler on Nov 29, 2004 3:44:54 GMT
Yes Loki, It is rewarding to debate, It is a great way of learning For me " My Ring Pass Not" Is
[glow=red,2,300]Who created the Creator. When you and me have reached perfection, the returned to the creator what then.[/glow] To even even begining to thinking beyond those points my brain seems to switch off. But anything within that ring, I am curious about and consider anything possible.
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Nov 29, 2004 3:47:00 GMT
Good point Yoki, I tend to follow your second option, that of total interconnection. But for me that is where the esoteric comes into play. We need to discover to what extent this is, how we perceive it, then how to deal and develop it. Finally the most difficult, how do we share this in a meaningful way. E.G. meditation is so obscure and particular to the individual that it mostly defies verbal or written description, to express all the nuances of "Light" that the original meditator observed/received.
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Nov 29, 2004 3:55:10 GMT
Whistler, This is an ongoing discovery. There is so much to learn in the mundane world, that oneness with the whole can stretch the imagination! I have heard it said that we are all exactly where we need to be, - hence we should deal with those issues presently before us. The rest will occur in due time. Of any thoughts I have had regarding union with the infinite, I can only surmise that "when one door closes another opens". I'm a European, Architect in this life, maybe in the next incarnation I'll be an African Shaman, with totally new aspects on life. This is exactly how Freemasonry teaches us, working from a variety of different positions within Lodge.
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Post by whistler on Nov 29, 2004 5:20:32 GMT
Whistler, This is an ongoing discovery. There is so much to learn in the mundane world, that oneness with the whole can stretch the imagination! I have heard it said that we are all exactly where we need to be, - hence we should deal with those issues presently before us. The rest will occur in due time. Of any thoughts I have had regarding union with the infinite, I can only surmise that "when one door closes another opens". I'm a European, Architect in this life, maybe in the next incarnation I'll be an African Shaman, with totally new aspects on life. This is exactly how Freemasonry teaches us, working from a variety of different positions within Lodge. Hubert , As each step seems to connect with the previous maybe it is not doors but the next light coming on down the passage way . As far as being a Shaman, or an architect I am sure it will be perfect for your soul (for want of a better word) and IMO you will have chosen what you will be inorder to achieve a specific purpose - Regarding working from a variety of different positions in the Lodge I totally agree - IMO Freemasonry completely reflects life, in all its aspects / I guess that is why I get into so much trouble elsewhere
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Nov 29, 2004 6:20:35 GMT
Is this not similar to a point within a circle from which no mason can err ??
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Post by whistler on Nov 29, 2004 7:27:43 GMT
Is this not similar to a point within a circle from which no mason can err ?? No I don't think, so I think that refers to Personal behavour.
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giovanni
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Post by giovanni on Apr 7, 2005 9:58:54 GMT
Leo, I would consider the meaning of the word "esoteric". The etimology: from the Greek word "eso" = in; "teron" = this is a suffix for "more", like English "er" (great ; greater). So esoteric means interior.
Symbols are just instruments adopted by men when they are in the need to communicate what cannot be expressed in words (this being the true and sole secret of Freemasonry).
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