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Post by atarnaris on Jan 9, 2005 14:24:42 GMT
The journey which has started with Freemasonry is now leading me to very interesting paths.Politics, history,linguistics, etymology and even medicine guide me along.
I wonder about truth, and whether there can be an absolute TRUTH, or relative truths, relative to paradigms.
Imagine that you know a fact. You want to conceal this fact from others for X reasons (not to be discussed here). What do you do? Make a symbol of it is the easiest option. Then you might want to make another symbol to mud the waters further.
A next generation comes along and reads your works. Someone with a good mind is trying to decode the symbol and applies a philosophy to it. Next generations write essays on the philisophies of the second generation.
The fifth generation thinking that it knows the truth symbolises it in a different manner. And so it goes with each generation building a greater building with its finite knowledge acting as bricks.
We are true masons Brethren in this fashion, building this building every day ! What we need to do is to demolish it and search in its core to find the TRUTH.
How many of us who likes the esoteric and let's say Hermeticism have actually read the works of the Great Hellenic Philosopher Hermes the Trismegistus. Not someones' interpretations of it, but the actual texts. All we do instead is reading the works, referring to works, and ad infinitum of some individual.
I practice medicine and medical knowledge is structured exactly like that. And sometimes when I get stuck I ask for the library this 1918 manuscript when some great mind described the condition in the first place. We are lucky to have access to these original papers. This way I get to see his thoughts and observations that led him to the desciption of his condition.
It's called back to basics...Now should we as researchers of the Truth and Masons stop building but start demolishing?
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Post by middlepillar on Jan 9, 2005 17:37:59 GMT
[quote author=atarnaris I practice medicine and medical knowledge is structured exactly like that. And sometimes when I get stuck I ask for the library this 1918 manuscript when some great mind described the condition in the first place. We are lucky to have access to these original papers. This way I get to see his thoughts and observations that led him to the desciption of his condition. It's called back to basics...Now should we as researchers of the Truth and Masons stop building but start demolishing?[/quote] Andrew An interesting thought going back to 'the beginning' and one that I am very comfortable with, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the quality of reading material that will be open to you after your Zelator ceremony and indeed how far back you will be able to go
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Post by atarnaris on Jan 9, 2005 23:22:26 GMT
Andrew An interesting thought going back to 'the beginning' and one that I am very comfortable with, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the quality of reading material that will be open to you after your Zelator ceremony and indeed how far back you will be able to go I am dead dead excited...Zelator...yahooo!
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Post by hollandr on Jan 10, 2005 2:20:38 GMT
Andrew
I consider that "truth" is an improper noun. We are trying to make an object of a process.
The process is testing for trueness - relative to some known standard. E.g. testing an upright using a plumb line.
So the search for trueness must be based on observations. They can be our own observations (for those who treat Masonry as a science) and by those (trusted) observers who have gone before us.
After observations comes analysis and from analysis comes proposition. Each proposition is or generates an hypothesis capable (in principle) of being tested.
So we have speculative Masonry as a science practised by those with sensitivity to energies or some more developed spiritual sense organs.
Hence a task for our generation - understanding the roots of Masonry and finding forms that are suitable to the next phase of the human race
This will not be the first change of form. Before KST there was The LIghthouse (the Great Pyramid).
Cheers
Russell
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Post by bevan on Jan 11, 2005 13:00:38 GMT
I'm very zen when it comes to this stuff. For me, truth is in the small, simple daily-life stuff. YOUR life is YOUR truth. So often in our lives truth knocks on the door and we say, "go away, I'm looking for the truth". And so it goes away.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 11, 2005 13:28:03 GMT
So often in our lives truth knocks on the door and we say, "go away, I'm looking for the truth". And so it goes away. So very simple, yet so profound.
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Post by bevan on Jan 11, 2005 14:46:54 GMT
Leonardo, I think it comes from the book "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" by Robert Pirsig. A great philosophical book which also examines what "quality" really means. For quality is much like truth, it's in the mind of the beholder.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 11, 2005 16:03:13 GMT
I thought it sounded familar. I actually have the book A great read.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 12, 2005 9:22:45 GMT
Pontius Pilate summed it up for me by the famous quote attributed to him "What is Truth?" when he interogated Christ.
When I visited RC Churches when with relatives or friends of that religion when I was a kid I used to see a little rack of pamphlets and books in the porch or narthex of the Chapel. This was full of publications by the "Catholic Truth Society". I read a few of these out of curiosity. Absolute Propaganda! There was even one about Freemasonry , Anti of course. Now here was an example of what was "Truth" to one party being a parcel of LIES to another.
So as Pilate said, "What is Truth?"
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Post by leonardo on Jan 12, 2005 10:20:06 GMT
“What is truth?”
“Truth” is dependent on the view of the beholder.
For example; members of the Moslem community will have their version of truth according to their beliefs, the same with those of the Jewish community, Catholic community, and so on.
Whatever we genuinely believe will be true for us. The confused man who really believes he’s Bonaparte is, to him at least, Bonaparte. This is his “truth”<br> Then there will always be those who will for their own reasons deliberately spread lies. Steve’s experience reading the pamphlet he’d come across in a Catholic church is an example of this.
But Gandhi said it best for me when he said:
“The Truth, even if it’s spoken by a minority of just one, is still the truth”.
Here (I believe) he was speaking of ultimate truth and not that from any doctrine or creed. Imo.
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Post by atarnaris on Jan 12, 2005 13:03:20 GMT
Let me beg to differ with all the above comments. The "truth" which is true to each individual and varies according to each one's paradigm, is only subject to one's experience of life.
I am talking about the TRUTH which transcends all paradigms, and subjectivity, where the intepretation by the Ego has no place.
I believe that this TRUTH does exist and I accept that it is most possibly completely different to my current "truth", that is existing, earth-based, subjective and represents a myopic view of life.
I see that we have become comfortable with the aspect of each individual having his/her own "truth" (hence the quote “Truth” is dependent on the view of the beholder) which falsely,in my opinion, points out to the subjugation of Ego. However if our "truth" is to be challenged we are ready to fight back to defend our small "truth". Ego in all its glory...
TRUTH vs truth... OBJECTIVE vs Subjective ALL vs a part
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Post by bevan on Jan 12, 2005 13:29:50 GMT
Andrew, the concept of Universal Truth does indeed exist.
Assuming that Universal Truth itself existed then I imagine that it would have to be either NO-THING or EVERY-THING. For it to be something inbetween doesn't seem right to me. If it were EVERY-THING then it is right in front of us. In fact, we could be it were it not for the veils of distraction! Alternatively it may be NO-THING in which every thing's individual truth out there sums up to nothing and the balance of the universal void is maintained i.e. constructive/destructive interference.
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Post by leonardo on Jan 12, 2005 13:41:16 GMT
Andrew I agree with where you're coming from. That is why I said Ghandi said it best. There is "ultimate truth", that's a given, but truth from our limited perspective is subjective to our views. It's sadly a human thing. Some of us, at least those with a deeper understanding, will see things differently.
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Post by atarnaris on Jan 12, 2005 14:15:29 GMT
Bro Bevan & Leo,
Since we agree in this concept of Everything+Nothingness of TRUTH, do you think that the analytical dissection of Freemasonry can lead us to that? In effect I am elaborating on Bro Russell's post (see above)...
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Post by bevan on Jan 12, 2005 16:37:25 GMT
Bro. Andrew, I personally believe that only once we have completed our journey on the Path of Return will we have found the Ultimate Truth. Perhaps we will BE Ultimate Truth (and Love). I believe this journey consists of slowly letting go of our personal truths i.e. reducing the amplitude of our ego ultimately to zero. I truly believe that the journey to Ultimate Truth is from Chaos to Order and that perfect Order is perfect nothingness. I believe the Universe is increasingly Chaotic but it all still balances out to "nothingness". Wow, give me the prize for waffling on!
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Post by atarnaris on Jan 12, 2005 16:55:51 GMT
Your comments are worthwhile. So do you not think that one can find/achieve the state of TRUTH (Everything/Nothing) while on a physical vehicle (ie being alive)?
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Post by bevan on Jan 13, 2005 10:04:53 GMT
No, I personally don't think we can. But we should not stop trying. However, sometimes searching for something takes you further away from it. Life is a journey and if we knew the destination then the fun of the journey may be spoilt. We must not forget to enjoy life in all it's simple pain and pleasure. I believe this is itself a path to enlightenment.
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Post by taylorsman on Jan 13, 2005 12:52:33 GMT
Bevan, with respect I think that Life is a bit more than a Magical Mystery Tour and is a combination of what we make of it and the cards we are dealt. To know the outcome may be boring but would solve many problems and to an extent we can shape how our Life develops not just take what comes.
Obviously factors such as wealth, health, status, even race and religion and gender play their part , but I am always mindful of the Parable of the man who buried his talent in the field and did nothing to better himself.
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Post by bevan on Jan 13, 2005 13:11:06 GMT
Steve, if we knew the "Truth" (outcome) then why would we need to shape the way our Life develops? Surely we would be fully developed already? Would this earthly existence then even have a purpose for us? I personally don't think that showing others the way to the "Truth" would work. After all, it is our own individual and infinitely varied journey(s) to the Truth that helps us find it in the first place. I am in no way saying that we should just sit back and relax. However, I have no doubt that a person who does not join the SRIA (for instance) has an equal chance of enlightenment in their lifetime. There are many paths to the top of the mountain.
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