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Post by atarnaris on Feb 22, 2005 23:37:52 GMT
An Art or a Science?
Do you master it by using your Subconscious or your Conscious Mind?
Do you use Intuition or Logic for that?
Is it of a Female or Male genre?
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 23, 2005 8:12:22 GMT
Ok I'll stick my neck out.
Now this isn't a strict "either or" like a light switch but I'd say for me, and I can only speak for myself here and based on my own experiences
More Art than Science
As much Subconscious as Conscious
More Intuitive than Logical
Male Genre, (I can't speak of Co-Masonry of course).
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bod
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Post by bod on Feb 23, 2005 8:58:03 GMT
Neither male nor female - genderless, as is all knowledge. More of a science than an art, but again, cannot be deliniated as there are elements of both, as the second degree points out.
From the conscious mind it works on the subconscious. What we hear and read, see and feel - all has an impact, slowly and subtly we find out natures being changed.
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Post by whistler on Feb 27, 2005 8:29:28 GMT
Neither male nor female - genderless, as is all knowledge. Ah is that what "Middlesex" is all about Which gender is "ES" and Which is "Sus"
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giovanni
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odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
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Post by giovanni on Mar 14, 2005 10:48:28 GMT
It's a method|
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Post by atarnaris on Mar 15, 2005 2:04:41 GMT
Method sound more like a science. Is that what you mean?
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giovanni
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odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
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Post by giovanni on Mar 15, 2005 10:46:57 GMT
Both. It's a method in the sense that allows men to live together, to search for an answer to great questions of life. Learning tolerance (science) man should be able to transform his life in a true masterpiece: and this is art. The art of living.
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Post by jratcliff on Mar 19, 2005 5:06:48 GMT
>>What is Freemasonry?
It is a social club where a bunch of mostly retired guys put on amature theatre productions. They also have pie and cookies and raise money for local charities.
I can tell you, as a fact, that where I come from this completely, thoroughly, and accurately defines exactly what Freemasonry 'is' and all that it entails.
Oh yeah. We get to wear cool rings too.
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Post by taylorsman on Mar 19, 2005 6:18:33 GMT
I hate to have to say this, but in some Lodges I have been to and for some Members I have met what J Ratcliff says is probably true. Of course, to myself and I would feel to most who post to this Forum it is far, far more than that.
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bod
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Post by bod on Mar 19, 2005 11:30:35 GMT
>>What is Freemasonry? It is a social club where a bunch of mostly retired guys put on amature theatre productions. They also have pie and cookies and raise money for local charities. I can tell you, as a fact, that where I come from this completely, thoroughly, and accurately defines exactly what Freemasonry 'is' and all that it entails. Oh yeah. We get to wear cool rings too. While this may be true of some lodges in your part of the world, it certainly isn't true of all of them, and you do freemasonry in 'your part of the world' a grave dis-service, as well as exposing your dis-satisfaction with it as practised where you live. If it isn't living up to all you feel it can do then become an agent for change - look into ideas like the Masonic Restoration and find like minded masons who will help you....
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Post by a on Mar 19, 2005 13:30:44 GMT
>>[Freemasonry] is a social club where a bunch of mostly retired guys put on amature theatre productions. They also have pie and cookies and raise money for local charities. I can tell you, as a fact, that where I come from this completely, thoroughly, and accurately defines exactly what Freemasonry 'is' and all that it entails. Some questions for thought. Given that there are Freemasons out there (including on this forum) who know that Freemasonry is much much more than this, why does there appear to be so many lodges where the members miss the real essence of Freemasonry? Following on from this, is it any real suprise that Freemasonry is currently facing so many issues in society? Surely the solution is for true Freemasons who have properly prepared themselves in their hearts to stand up and guide? And I know that this is happening, but I also know that too many despair at how bad things have become and get worn down by the unmasonic behaviour of some of the clubbers. Think about the true Freemasons who you know personally, and those that you know through the forums who have simply "had enough." I just think that it is about time responsibility is taken. And that will take the opening of many hearts to work together in harmony for the mutual good. After all what does it say about Freemasonry, if true Freemasons can't guide and help their own brothers on their personal journies, where the concept of illumination appears to have sometimes been mislaid, and where true Freemasons are too often forced out of organised Freemasonry through exhaustion or bullying?
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Post by taylorsman on Mar 19, 2005 14:50:18 GMT
"Surely the solution is for true Freemasons who have properly prepared themselves in their hearts to stand up and guide? "
Stewart, that is easier said than done. If one is in a position of influence, say a VGO or Grand Officer with a good rank, a PGM , on the Board of General Purposes, etc then that might be possible but to the ordinary man in the Master Mason's Apron, as far as UGLE Craft Lodges are concerned the mechanism simply does not exist . There is very seldom any DISCUSSION in a Craft Lodge, the various set pieces are performed, Minutes presented and voted on, Degrees Worked, Almoner's and Charity Steward's Reports. There MAY be a Notice of Motion and Members can speak to that but these are usually formalities such as Presenting the Accounts, increasing the Subs, etc.
Even when the WM Rises three times and the Secretary responds with Grand Lodge, Provincial and Lodge matters and a Brother could raise some matter, if it was contentious he could well be ruled out of order by the WM or told to submit it for consideration to the Lodge Commitee where it would be likely to be sat upon. If there is no conduit for communication then it is difficult to make your feelings known, it is like listening for the sound of one hand clapping.
That is why I feel this particular Forum serves such a useful function as it provides a vehicle for ordinary Brethren to express an opinion, ask a question, make a suggestion, have a moan or even lavish some praise without fear or favour. Yes, some Provinces such as Surrey have issued questionaires to Brethren but it is one thing canvassing opinion but another to act upon it, but at least it is start.
I would think that the Scots being more bottom up than top down (as is UGLE) find it easier to "express their feelings freely in the good old Scottish way" . Perhaps some Scottish Brother might care to comment.
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Post by a on Mar 19, 2005 15:11:58 GMT
Stewart, that is easier said than done. Indeed as I know from talking to some of your brothers who have tried. Here is the thing though, if the true essence of Freemasonry is simply squeezed out of Lodges then what remains?
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Mar 19, 2005 15:19:29 GMT
What is the TRUE meaning of Freemasonry though,
Apart from self development and a way of life living to certain codesof ethics the main reason must be the charitable side which Stewart i think you miss out this part as (without appearing rude and not meant to be )you are so pre occupied with your own self development you forget one of the main reasons for joining or wanting to join freemasonry.
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Post by a on Mar 19, 2005 15:37:15 GMT
What is the TRUE meaning of Freemasonry though, Good question, and the answer lies in your heart, which is where it all started when you started to prepare yourself. Indeed Indeed. Charity is indeed very important, both in terms of financial giving (which is relatively easy) and through time and work (which is more difficult). But I don't think that the main reason for Freemasonry is charity. It is interesting to note the different degrees of emphasis placed on charity by the different fraternities. Charity does help you grow as an individual that is for sure and it also helps others, that is also for sure. You may be suprised to find out just how much I am currently, and indeed have been throughout a good part of life, been involved one way or another with charities and charity work. You already know some of of these from my posts. Could I suggest that if people really are joining Freemasonry primarily to do charity work as you suggest "one of the main reasons for joining", then this does explain many things, for example, why the esoteric is discounted. Also unless a lodge is actually doing charity work the hard way by doing things in the community, then joining, paying Loodge fees, learning ritual etc, is perhaps not the most efficient way to donate money. Just my opinion obviously.
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Post by taylorsman on Mar 19, 2005 16:44:06 GMT
Stewart, I have been in Freemasonry now for just over 16 years and am in all the commonly known Orders. I have yet to meet a Brother who has given "To do Charitable work" as his reason for being a Member of The Craft. Now some of the Brethren I have met DO perform such works but in some other organisation better suited and more targetted to that function, or it might even be their occupation.
There are far more effective ways to practice Charity be that by contributing money, which as you say is relatively easy for many people, or time and talents which with the pressures of modern day life and the adverse Work/Life balance many of us now have to endure is far more difficult to achieve.
The most common reasons I have heard for being a Freemason from many Brethren I have met and in no particular ranking or order are :-
"My father, brother, relatives, friends are in it", "I am interested in the History/Mystery/Symbolism", "I enjoy the company" "It gives me a sense of purpose" "It gives me a challenge to learn the Ritual etc" and I have to mention this although I have only heard this from a couple of members and one subsequently left Freemasonry no doubt when he found that it wasn't the case, "I feel it will help me with my business and other activities"
Not once however has anyone said to me "I joined in order to do Charitable Works", so although Freemasonry does collect a great deal of money from its Members for Charitable purposes and contributes both to its own Charities such as the RMBI and MFGB etc and to external Non Masonic good causes, this does not seem to be the prime purpose to most Brethren whom I have found treat the Annual Covenant they pay to the Charity Steward as just another cost of being in a Lodge etc.
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Mar 19, 2005 17:02:25 GMT
Steve,i agree with your post and i also did not join to do charity work. However we are told at the interview that this is an aspect or side that we will have to embrace and i feel the charitable side is a really good part of freemasonry and as we give quietly and generously it does give some satisfaction that we are doing our bit so to speak on a regular basis.
What is freemasonry ??
This thread may continue forever
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staffs
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Post by staffs on Mar 19, 2005 17:06:03 GMT
Quote from Stewart : "Good question, and the answer lies in your heart, which is where it all started when you started to prepare yourself"
Stewart this is where it all started but this is where you are first prepared. It is not the answer to " WHAT is Freemasonry" ?
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Post by taylorsman on Mar 19, 2005 17:51:21 GMT
Lee, I would imagine a lot depends on the attitude of the particular Lodge and the personality of the Charity Steward. It's a long time back now but I am trying to remember my own Interview in the Autumn of 1988. As far as I can recall all that was said was "You do realise that in addition to the Annual subs each Brother is expected to contribute as he can by Deed of Covenant to the Masonic Charities" and an amount was stated as being the norm. The Interview then went on to other matters. Now that would seem to be the same for most interviews I have attended as a PM or Lodge Officer, a cursory mention inter alia. Ability to attend the LOI generally get more attention.
Some time back UGLE moved the ranking of the Charity Steward and Almoner to be above that of the SD and JD and the former are now Invested at the Installation before the Deacons, a move which did not please may Traditionalists. No doubt this was to point up the importance of these two Officers but it seems to have been a damp squib in my experience as those two roles (with that of Chaplain), are often given to PMs who have nothing else to do, have not the Ritual capability to be ADC or DC, nor the clerical skills to be Secretary or Treasurer. You can see the Master Elect looking down the list. "Oh Old Bill will do Charity Steward , he's a kindly old chap and it will do him good when it's time to get his Honours"
Perhaps we ought to copy the Shriners by adopting a particular Charity as they have done with hospitals which treat burns suffered by children, and give it a high public profile? As to which one we all have our own ideas.
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Post by a on Mar 19, 2005 18:17:13 GMT
Quote from Stewart : "Good question, and the answer lies in your heart, which is where it all started when you started to prepare yourself" Stewart this is where it all started but this is where you are first prepared. It is not the answer to " WHAT is Freemasonry" ? Are you sure? Read what I wrote again and mull on it for a while. And remember I could be wrong.
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