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Post by a on Apr 1, 2005 6:42:04 GMT
I have placed this thread here and not under esoteric as this is, I understand, the norm for some Lodges in some fraternities.
A post on another forum got me thinking and I thought that I would post this here (not there).
When I was first introduced to the concept of Guardian Angels by Freemasons I was comfortable with the theory, and believing in ghosts, aliens etc, it did not suprise me. But even though I was comfortable with the theory it still took me a long time to accept that this came from the mouths of several Freemasons, as opposed to what I had read in conspiracy theory stuff.
Anyway time has progressed and now I am more than comfortable with, understanding of, and dare I suggest have personal experience of Guardian Angels. And it is pleasing to see more Freemasons confidently talk about them and their involvement in Lodge publicly.
For those who can not in any way relate to Guardian Angels, I wonder how they would react if they came to realise that the Angels really do watch over spiritually aware Lodges who do good work for the benefit of humanity? (having never been in open lodge I can only take it on trust that they do).
I mean Lodges are opened to God, so is it not a natural progression for Angels to visit and support those Lodges who work well?
I understand that Angels (and by duality demons) are a difficult area for many, but could I postulate that if Angels come to support good Lodges who work for the benefit of humanity, that demons may do what they can for Lodges that are perhaps darker and more self-centred in their ambitions? Even though the lodge members may be unaware of their involvement.
Just some thoughts.
Staffs if you consider this thread inappropriate in any way, just delete it.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 1, 2005 7:28:21 GMT
I do feel this would be far better on the Esoteric Section to be honest, Stewart. Indeed, I now observe that Leo has done just that, a wise re-location in my opinion.
Now at a Meeting of SRIA this would not cause any stir at all. Indeed last week one of our Fratres spoke about some far more remarkable psychic "out of body" experiences he claims to have had and everyone listened politely and asked serious questions of him without any mockery or irony. Now I am just imagining the response at most Craft Lodges I have attended if someone said they had spoken to or seen their "Guardian Angel". W Bro Bloggs turns to the barman and says "Give me a pint of what he's on!"
Now do I believe in "Guardian Angels"? No, I don't think so, but I am open to being proven wrong.
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Post by a on Apr 1, 2005 7:57:17 GMT
Looks like Leo agreed.
Excellent, tolerance, love, search for truth.
Can you explain to me how such an attitude is Masonic? In terms of love, relief and truth?
This is something that you have to discover for yourself Taylorsman. It is possibly easier to get there if you view life as a journey, a place to experience, to learn, than as a destination.
Clearly I can't comment on what would happen if you were to visit a Lodge where such things did happen. Would you be receptive to them? Would your energies negate them? Would you feel them? I am in no position to comment here.
Added: This illustrates the point that in UGLE Freemasonry you have to go to the higher orders to find what you can find at Craft level elsewhere. I have mixed views on which system is best. But that would be the subject of another thread.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 1, 2005 8:37:44 GMT
"Quote:Now I am just imagining the response at most Craft Lodges I have attended if someone said they had spoken to or seen their "Guardian Angel". W Bro Bloggs turns to the barman and says "Give me a pint of what he's on!" Can you explain to me how such an attitude is Masonic? In terms of love, relief and truth?"
I would not dare to claim that such a response is "Masonic", I don't hold myself out as the arbiter of what is or is not a "Masonic" attitude. I would only say that this would be the normal human attitude from most people I have met, and that the greater number of these are polite, courteous, friendly, but would be sceptical of someone claiming such an experience.
Frankly, one really needs to tailor the topics one discusses to the situation and company. Thinking back on the Frater last week who discussed his OOB experiences, he was in the right place to do so in an audience of receptive people, but had he spoken on a similar theme in other situations, including I feel in the Bar or at the Festive Board of an Ordinary Craft Meeting , he would have received a far more sceptical response, perhaps with some "banter" at his expense. That's Life, that's what happens in the Real World and we have to live with that.
Now my own stance? I have had some "supernatural" experiences, nothing sensational, but am not prepared to sign up for any package, nor give a blank cheque drawn on my belief to anyone claiming such experiences without some degree of evidence. As to Guardian Angels, no. I have to say the concept does not sit well with me of a spirit dedicated to invisibly (in most cases) look after a person 24/7. I have to ask, where was Terri Schiavo's Guardian Angel these last years, on vacation at Palm Beach?
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Post by a on Apr 1, 2005 8:50:15 GMT
"Now my own stance? I have had some "supernatural" experiences, nothing sensational, but am not prepared to sign up for any package, nor give a blank cheque drawn on my belief to anyone claiming such experiences without some degree of evidence. Just like me. However could I suggest that this really is something that you have to find your own way on, with a little guidance here and there when appropriate. That is not how I view Guardian Angels. It is my experience that they are more of a guide to help as opposed to protector in the sense that they will protect you from the worlds ills. As I said it helps if you view life as a journey not a destination. And once you do gain a personal understanding of Guardian Angels it really does bring you closer to God in terms of belief and trust. Again Taylorsman it is a matter of perspective. I am not going to be drawn into a debate over the rights and wrongs of her case, but I would guess that her Angel was with her comforting her as best they could during the circumstances presented to her by man in this physical life. This is not about Angels intervening in our physical world and performing supernatural feats. It is much more subtle than that, and it has to be for what would the purpose of life be if we were to be given everything on a plate and did not have to learn to live in harmony? Also why do you think that some churches perform exorcisims? Could I suggest for where angels can exist so can demons.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 1, 2005 9:11:54 GMT
I am not so bone- headed as to reject out of hand the ideas of their being "Spirits" both benign and malevolent, Angels and Demons if you wish. I do however look firstly for some natural explanation for the alleged actions of same, claimed appearances and manifestations of Angelic or Demonic forces , and if such can not be found then I am prepared to accept that some Power over and above our currently understood Physical world may be responsible. As one who works in Electronics and in the Calibration aspects thereof I have to work with the tangible and measurable and this no doubt informs my mind-set.
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Post by plewis66 on Apr 1, 2005 11:56:02 GMT
And, for my money, puts you on the right path.
I firmly believe that one should always look for the mundane explanation first. I'm sure the same thing applies in your job. If something goes wrong with a piece of equipment, first check it's plugged in before starting to dismantle it!
On the other hand, I bet you didn't realise that all those electronic gizmos you deal with are actually controlled by tiny little spirits, elementals and daemons running around inside the wires. (Actually, I bet you probably did, but lurkers may not have.)
Many years ago, physical phenomena were explained by the actions of spirits and elementals. There were spirits that pulled things down to the surface of the earth. Spirits that made waves, made the wind etc.
Now, of course, we know that there are perfectly understandable natural causes for these things, and we have, to a geater or lesser extent, determined the laws by which they operate.
In more esoteric areas, we have not made the same kind of progress in our analytical and mathematical treating of phenomena, and so we are still left with the antique descriptions of the active agencies as 'spirits', sinply because we don't yet have the alternative description provided by a more rigorously scientific approach.
So, the spirits, elementals etc. we encounter in our esoteric work are manifestations of natural forces of the psyche, just like gravity is a manifestation of the natural forces of the material world.
The reason these 'spirits' can appear intelligent is that they are forces in the realm of the psyche, and intelligence is of the nature of that realm.
There are a couple of reasons they sometimes appear as anthropomorphic. For some, there are archetypal images impressed onto the particular type of force (for example, the Archangels of the Quarters), and in other cases, it's simply that when we encounter an intelligence, we expect it to be anthropomorphic in appearance.
I'm getting a bit carried away. I'll stop.
All above, is, of course, IMHO(&E).
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Post by Temple on Apr 2, 2005 1:08:36 GMT
Although I haven't really connected with the whole 'angel thing' in the past. I have often wondered if I have a vengeance angel who stuffs it to people who intentionally try to harm me. Quite often I've noticed that when I'm hurt by someone, something negative happens to them. Sorry if this sounds weird. I think perhaps I leaped upon the idea of it being another entity because deep down I worried that it might be negative thoughts coming from me that were responsible... sorry, does this sound really trippy?
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Apr 2, 2005 1:58:27 GMT
A sincere Masonic ideal is: "Do unto others as you would they do unto you". An esoteric ideal is;" that which you cast upon others rebounds back to the sender". This, Temple, is a rational explanation of what I think you have indicated in your latest post; and ties up with the "principle" of a "guardian Angel". The Catholic Church promotes them in its' catechism.
My view is that they are an embodiment (tho' Astrally and above - rather than physical) of ones' own being. We all dwell on a variety of "planes" (levels) in each incarnation. The Guardian Angel is simply a means by which we acknowledge this existence.
My terminology may not equate to others in this respect. If there is a belief that the GA is an entity SEPARATE from the individual, then that could equally be identified as "higher plane associates". Just as we meet and form ties with mortal beings (neighbours, workmates etc) so we do the same on alternate spiritual levels. Tho' I still beleive WE call these entities ourselves. they are not appointed by some higher GOD, they are summond by our spiritual higher selves.
Do I make sence to anyone out there?
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Post by whistler on Apr 2, 2005 6:12:09 GMT
I do feel this would be far better on the Esoteric Section to be honest, Stewart. Indeed, I now observe that Leo has done just that, a wise re-location in my opinion. Now at a Meeting of SRIA this would not cause any stir at all. Indeed last week one of our Fratres spoke about some far more remarkable psychic "out of body" experiences he claims to have had and everyone listened politely and asked serious questions of him without any mockery or irony. Now I am just imagining the response at most Craft Lodges I have attended if someone said they had spoken to or seen their "Guardian Angel". W Bro Bloggs turns to the barman and says "Give me a pint of what he's on!" Now do I believe in "Guardian Angels"? No, I don't think so, but I am open to being proven wrong. Taylorman - I would love to share my freemasonry with such people as attend SRIA - but that is another matter. I am just amazed at the ridicule that is poured down at the other place on such subjects .
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
Posts: 3,295
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Post by staffs on Apr 2, 2005 7:20:17 GMT
During the course of my work working in peoples houses i have now twice spoken to psychics and questioned them about my gaurdian angel and both have described my GA identically.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 2, 2005 7:50:48 GMT
Assuming such an entity as a Guardian Angel DOES exist, would you want to have one?
I don't like real people looking over my shoulder anyway so would I be that happy with an "invisible man" doing so?
The more I think about this idea, the less I like it and the less I am prepared to accept it, but if it makes people happy to believe in such a concept who am I to mock it?
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Post by a on Apr 2, 2005 8:08:07 GMT
The more I think about this idea, the less I like it and the less I am prepared to accept it, but if it makes people happy to believe in such a concept who am I to mock it? Taylorsman it is clear that this makes you a little uncomfortable, so I will be brief - GAs are more than a mere belief, they are very real. Perhaps one day you will gain the comfort to be able to get to know yours. And if not I am sure that they will stay in the background and give you the space that you feel you need. Fortunately you have the support of the SRIA (if not your Craft and other Lodges) to help you here. And you also have me if the need ever arises.
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Post by taylorsman on Apr 2, 2005 8:50:21 GMT
Perhaps so, Stewart. There are millions of people who believe in Transubstantion, Auricular Confession and that the Pope (even this dying one) is Infallible. I reject all three of those ideas, but that neither makes them and their adherents wrong, nor me right nor vice versa.
To return to the Frater at my last SRIA Meeting he not only claimed that he had experienced Out of Body Travel, and I am prepared to accept that, but that he had brought back tangible objects from elsewhere by this means, that is that in a dream his spirit had gone to another place and had brought back objects which were physically present with him when he awoke. Now in such a forum as an SRIA Meeting he was heard out politely but I can't help but feel that I was not the only person who was quietly sceptical about his claims, after all even if he brought such objects with him what is to say that they had not been obtained by perfectly ordinary means? My opinion? The good old Scottish Legal Verdict "NOT PROVEN", much the same as my stance on alleged "Alien Abductions".
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Post by middlepillar on Apr 2, 2005 14:21:44 GMT
Short Answer,
Yes I do believe we all have a Guardian Angel, if you had suggested it to me 7 years ago I would of categorically stated that you were barmy.
Life is after all a journey of discovery, and I would only advise everyone to keep an open mind. Things may happen that convince you, but this might not ever occur, so be it.
All who dont believe this is something I am comfortable with but dont let it worry you if you dont believe, it isnt going to change anything is it?
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Post by whistler on Apr 2, 2005 20:27:05 GMT
Short Answer, Yes I do believe we all have a Guardian Angel, if you had suggested it to me 7 years ago I would of categorically stated that you were barmy. Life is after all a journey of discovery, and I would only advise everyone to keep an open mind. Things may happen that convince you, but this might not ever occur, so be it. All who dont believe this is something I am comfortable with but dont let it worry you if you dont believe, it isnt going to change anything is it? Perfect answer - Keep an open mind - anything may be possible - if it doesn't fit just leave it, it may do someday. Say something is not possible and you close a door ;D
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Post by leonardo on Apr 2, 2005 21:27:42 GMT
Perfect answer - Keep an open mind - anything may be possible - if it doesn't fit just leave it, it may do someday. Say something is possible and you close a door ;D Should that be "impossible"
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Post by foxcole on Apr 3, 2005 0:59:52 GMT
I, too, know I have a Guardian Angel, who I'm afraid has been kept rather busy at different periods of my life, but who was always there at the critical moment. I don't believe they are "dedicated to invisibly (in most cases) look after a person 24/7" but rather have the power to influence events at the moment of summons--that innate prayer that we or our bodies emit in the instant we face the greatest distress, challenge, or need. I was relatively young when I first reflected on my life and recognized that pattern of influence and protection; I was only in my early 20's. I've seen and felt that helping presence time and time again, my entire life.
I wouldn't claim that I could ever be able to see or speak to a Guardian Angel. I'm not even sure that mine is a single being (or soul, or agent, or spirit, or presence) but it is from a single Source, and that's all that matters to me.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Apr 3, 2005 23:15:05 GMT
Say something is possible and you close a door
Well, you do close the door to the impossible, don't you?
Modern theories of the Guardian Angel equate this being with the Higher Self. This means you aren't cut off from the potential and power of this being just because you happen not to believe in an external God.
Some don't, you know.
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