Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Mar 4, 2007 23:52:42 GMT
Bro. JMDWith your comments I concur. At the back of my mind, there is an aspect of the debate which has been troubling me. In the works of Alexandra David-Néel, one reads of an exercise whereby the student is made thoroughly familiar with the attributes of a fictitious, Yeti like creature. Once David-Néel achieved this degree of familiarity, she found she could easily visualise the creature and was indeed surprised to see increasingly frequent glimpses of it, until her thought-form had become nearly a constant presence, which was even seen by visitors to her hermitage (she needed to be present for them to observe it—there is an exercise which assists in shifting the locus of one’s consciousness, which may tie in with this). At first David-Néel appeared to exercise some control over the creature but it soon began exercising its ‘own’ will (perhaps some other consciousness had taken occupancy) and, although originally a creature of her own imagination, it became somewhat threatening. Eventually, the thought-form it was banished by a monk of a higher grade (it was, after all, 'only' an illusion). Perhaps this experience ties in with ideas about the Kabalistic Gollum and the familiars of witches (and indeed of Yeties). In this sense it may be that Russell indeed experiences unicorns, which appear all too real to himself and others. My point is that, while it may be profitable to explore, so as to deconstruct, common social illusions, which give rise to the sense of separateness, I suggest it is not wholesome to explore, so as to construct, new illusions (indeed whole new worlds), further separating us from awareness of our participation in the one life. This appeared to be the lesson David-Néel's exercise was intended to teach, which was conducted under the guidance of one familiar with the risks and well able to protect her. Release from our entrapment in illusion is one of the lessons communicated in the Kalachakra initiations, where candidates become lost in and attached to the 'reality' of the increasing complexity of the 'precious' mandala being constructed—only to find the Master casually destroys it, releasing them in an instant from their delusion.
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Mar 5, 2007 0:52:03 GMT
>In this sense it may be that Russell indeed experiences unicorns, which appear all too real to himself and others.
So the question is: Is the unicorn formed by my thought, by the thought of earlier humans, by the thought of some other intelligent being, or by the thought of God
Only in the latter case can we take the unicorn as real. Unless of course our God is a lesser god. In which case it may still be unreal
Now, how do we devise a test for the reality of the unicorn?
After all Masonry is a science and we are encouraged to investigate the hidden mysteries of nature and science
Cheers
Russell
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Mar 5, 2007 4:06:57 GMT
Bro. Russell,So the question is: Is the unicorn formed by my thought, by the thought of earlier humans, by the thought of some other intelligent being, or by the thought of God I am surprised by your question, which appears to depend on the extreme empiricism proposed by Bishop Berkeley, tempered by Rupert Sheldrake’s concept of Morphogenetic Fields. Both are interesting and both are debatable. Rather, I would question the advisability of deliberately pursuing or adding further layers to the illusions under which we already labour. For those familiar with the choice offered in the Matrix movie—between the stark realities of life, with its joys and its pains, or the contrived world of fantasy, with its Munchkins and unicorns—Will you choose the red pill or the blue pill?
|
|
|
Post by maat on Mar 5, 2007 5:16:28 GMT
My heads all a-spin.... Tamrin, being such a cautious man, if you happened to be present when someone levitated before your eyes, as in the case of St Joseph of Cupertino... "Frequently he would be raised from his feet and remain suspended in the air. Besides he would at times hear heavenly music. Since such occurrences in public caused much admiration and also disturbance in a community, Joseph for thirty-five years was not allowed to attend choir, go to the common refectory, walk in procession or say Mass in church, but was ordered to remain in his room, where a private chapel was prepared for him." www.newadvent.org/cathen/08520b.htmSo you, Tamrin, and a whole congregation witness this event - what would you make of it? Just automatically assume it is an instance of mass hallucination? I know you can't believe everything you see, but then I am also reminded of the emporer and his new clothes.... As I said - head is in a spin, especially when we are told by the Spiritually advanced that everything we see is not Real, the Real cannot be seen... ?? I am assuming that Real in this instance means Eternal. Maat
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Mar 5, 2007 5:54:00 GMT
>Rather, I would question the advisability of deliberately pursuing or adding further layers to the illusions under which we already labour.
For myself, I can't resist an investigative challenge
Cheers
Russell
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Mar 5, 2007 5:58:15 GMT
Bro. MaatSt Joseph of Cupertino—during contemplation of the good, the true and the beautiful, he appears to have been easily distracted and thus freed from the illusions of the world. I suggest deliberately adding further layers of illusion is another, more dubious, affair. Moreover, his levitation could be witnessed. If witnesses were to watch as Russell and his companions entered a room, commenced their guided meditations, imagined themselves protected by a golden light, located their silky white unicorns, mounted and flew them over the North Pole, what would the witnesses see—would they need their Arctic clothing?
|
|
|
Post by moose on Mar 5, 2007 7:39:45 GMT
Scotish heritage , yes my family goes a long way back into scotish royalty so I'm told aparently an aunt has an extencive record, but my father gerew up in Irland. But what does that have to do with it?
As for the unicorn, it must be something different or atleast theres too many aspecs for me to go into detail to define it and I'll just leave that there. I mentioned in another thread that I have exstremly vivid dreams and not fanticy things they are educational, instuctual and other things. and um alittle too much for this thread I think my mother thinks I'm a little nuts but my dad just keeps a quiet ear on whatever I bring up.
You mentioned that demons look for a place to conceal themselves any links to some good books on that?
The original topic of this thread was "what would you accept as proof", I think it should be "what would you actept as truth, without needing proof". Probably more aimed at the esoterics here.
|
|
|
Post by a on Mar 5, 2007 7:46:44 GMT
Now it gets intriguing. Some conspiracy theorists claim that Scotland is the home of "real" esoterics (could this be why we are so influential globally? - in corporations and in various countries - even the SAS I hear [from an ex SAS chap on telly] has a high percentage of Scots in there). We, Scots, can endure extreme hardship, and still find the energy to fight/build/harmonise/lead.
Wouldn't be surprised to find that the ancient roots of some Scots families can be traced back to the times of the great Egyptian Dynasties - especially the Kingdoms where peace, harmony, and prosperity ruled. Also given how we are prepared to put the past behind us and hold our hands out in friendship to those who have hurt us (a new year tradition at least when I was a lad) you never know some of those Egyptian Kings who enlightened the country out of the terrors and fractures of the Intermediate periods of darkness may well have been Scots ancestors. Though clearly I am romanticising, and the facts could well be rather different.
As you can imagine this is an area of some interest to me.
And being a poor lad from a broken home who grew up extremely lost and fractured, I don't have access to such family historical records. But I would in no way be surprised.
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Mar 5, 2007 7:48:27 GMT
Bro. RussellFor myself, I can't resist an investigative challenge Sorry, the stakes are too high and one does not need to play in mud to know you'll get dirty.
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Mar 5, 2007 9:00:26 GMT
>Scotish heritage , yes my family goes a long way back into scotish royalty so I'm told aparently an aunt has an extencive record, but my father gerew up in Irland. But what does that have to do with it? It was just that when I was looking at the black unicorn and considering your family I noticed the unicorn was taking a strong interest in Scotland so I deduced that you had scottish blood The question of why the black unicorn takes an interest in Scotland is to do with how the Earth recently became a sacred planet >You mentioned that demons look for a place to conceal themselves any links to some good books on that? This is the only one I know that gives direct techniques www.amazon.com/Spirit-Releasement-Therapy-Technique-Manual/dp/092991516XThere is also a web site www.spiritreleasement.org/ but I recommend the book. It can be borrowed from the Brisbane City Council library including by interlibrary loan Also when you learn to ascend Jacob's Ladder, the favourite hiding place is 5.4 - half way up the mental plane. The demons create a shiny surface that looks like a wall inside the mind space and hide behind it Generally the demons are only the delivery end of something bigger Cheers Russell
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Mar 5, 2007 9:10:02 GMT
>Wouldn't be surprised to find that the ancient roots of some Scots families can be traced back to the times of the great Egyptian Dynasties
Stewart
And earlier than that.
The area of the Moray Firth was used for a colony by the 3 northern Atllantean kingdoms including the area now covered by Culbin Sands and using Cluny Hill for ritual. The Arthur landed here and his energy is still mistaken for the Christ at some of the local sacred sites. Later Blake wrote about those feet and swords and arrows of desire as a memory of Arthur the royal heir to at least 2 of the 10 Atlantean kingdoms
Later the Atlantean migrations moved down through Europe through Phoenicia and far beyond.
As much of the Morya colony was based on underground facilities some may still exist
Cheers
Russell
(Philip, the above is for Stewart only)
|
|
|
Post by moose on Mar 5, 2007 9:43:56 GMT
Stewart Edwards I think your on to something there with the scots thing, described me pretty well I just thought it was cus I was a FM in heart but maybe it's cus I'm a scot I don't have access to any records myself either but I'm keen to see what my aunt has. I also found an online Murray decendent DNA program to sort out exactly what strand your from I don't know the purpose behind it but I'v found a couple run by different groups, perhaps there are similar things for other clans. I know there are alot of different ways online to find out by getting birth death marage certificatse there are forums with people who have patial lines and offer up info for people that might be from the same line that sort of thing but most is too expensive for me. Russell Shiny surface isn't just for hiding is it it's also protection? and delivery of something bigger yes I would believe that too.
|
|
|
Post by a on Mar 5, 2007 9:47:40 GMT
Russell
Thank you.
I will confess to having some difficulty in going back beyond Dynastic Egypt. Not totally sure why at present. But in the fullness of time and all that.
There are some powerful magnetic forces in Scotland that is for sure. Mundanely this is seen, for example, in the power of the mighty highlands which are somewhat exciting to many, (why do you think that I chose the Loch Ness Marathon last year), and in the words of Robert Burns.
As one example thinking about Burns, on Burns Night this year I gave a lecture on leadership to the local (English) Air Cadet squadron that I help out at. Being Burns night I themed it using RAF Lossiemouth (in Scotland) and Scotland as a backdrop. By the end of the evening the kids were telling me what inspires them and we were discussing it (inspiration is important to leadership in case anyone misses the connection). Interstingly people such as Joan or Arc, and Jane Austin spoke out over the centuries to two of the cadets as what inspires them. But this is a digression. My point is that, for all of the current roughness in Scotland, there is an underlying energy that does touch the hearts of so so many people. In exactly the same was as Joan of Arc and Jane Austin speaks out over time to these two cadets. Now that is a hidden mystery(s) that is worthy of study. What inspires you and why/how? Should keep anyone out of mischief for quite some time.
Added: For accuracy/balance I also chose LNM as it had an 8 hour time (most have 6) limit and when I applied meeting that would have been optimistic . That said there were other options but Loch Ness did, and does provide a strong pull. Must be Nessie ;D
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Mar 5, 2007 10:09:46 GMT
Bro. Russell(Philip, the above is for Stewart only) Even so, you may find this of interest. A Saharan rock painting from Jabbaren, conventionally dated to 3,500 to 2,500 B.C.E. Featuring four Egyptian style queens, representing four races.
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Mar 5, 2007 10:25:29 GMT
> I also found an online Murray decendent DNA program
Sean
Murray and Moray seem to be the same word and certainly have the same local pronunciation
You may also think it more than coincidence that Morayfield Lodge meets in the same building as your lodge
And I confess a slight disappointment that no one detected the relationship between Morya and Moray
Cheers
Russell
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Mar 5, 2007 10:30:14 GMT
>Shiny surface isn't just for hiding is it it's also protection?
The shiny surface is so that the inattentive thinker will not detect the presence of the entity in the mind. There is also another entity living in the mind that is hidden while remaining in the open spaces of the mind
And beneficient entities also hide behind shiny surfaces within the mind space
> and delivery of something bigger yes I would believe that too.
Most entities that conceal themselves in the human mind are carrying an agenda - for good or ill
Cheers
Russell
|
|
|
Post by moose on Mar 5, 2007 10:43:14 GMT
Yes "And beneficient entities also hide behind shiny surfaces within the mind space" The lion I mentioned. I think Ill just write it all down for future refernce. My wife thinks I should have been keeping a diary for years. recording certain things. Thnx Sean
|
|
|
Post by hollandr on Mar 5, 2007 11:13:04 GMT
>My wife thinks I should have been keeping a diary for years. recording certain things.
A diary is important from several points of view. One is that by making a contemporaneous record you have a better chance of testing your impressions against later events
Another reason is to provide raw material for someone later to generate new children's tales concealing spiritual teachings
Cheers
Russell
|
|
Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
|
Post by Tamrin on Mar 5, 2007 19:47:20 GMT
Bro. MaatFurther to you query (reply #83) re my skepticism in this case and your suggestion that I am a committed skeptic, I would remind you that we have gone over this ground before. For instance, see Reply #129 under the "What's happening in the Temple in the Heavens" thread and my response (reply #130), which was itself a restatement of my position. You had appealed for me to consider my experiences elsewhere and I replied that it was on the basis of that experience that I was skeptical in this case. To further reiterate, it seems that Bro. Russell has experienced something. However I suggest he has reported it as something else—as something more concrete than his transpersonal but still subjective experience. If this experience were simply reported as a dream or a vision or even a delusion, I would be fascinated as to its meaning. Albeit, as this appears to be the result of a guided meditation among people already sharing common ideas, the significance may be diminished, (one who is familiar with a particular author or TV show can frequently anticipate the plot). Russell's sharing of their common jargon outside the group, (among whom the terms 'seagod on playground duty,' 'temple in the heavens,' 'Jacob's ladder,' 'riding unicorns over the North Pole,' etc., appear to have some special meaning), suggests he expects the wider community to not only be familiar with the terms but to be acquainted with and accepting of the special meanings his group attaches to them. This, in itself, is cause for concern as, even among esoterics, different groups use different jargons (consider 'Mason-Speak', with its rough and perfect ashlars and cable-tows of varying lengths, etc) and need to explain themselves carefully in talking with others (to do otherwise is akin to glossolalia). The group, or at least Russell, seem to be objectifying their experiences (hence my earlier post re Yeties, etc), embedding themselves in further illusion, to the extent that they expect others to at least to have some idea of their fantasies. Indeed, Russell does appear to feel the need to objectify his unicorns, giving these 'creations' of late medieval philosophers a false antiquity and a reality contrary to the purpose of their conjecture (among the essences of their unicorns was non-existence). As to the experience itself, if it is a shared vision, I would expect it to be described as such. I think it was you who asked about the reports of visions in the Bible and whether or not I accepted them. While I am not a fundamentalist, I allow that they are possible (though many seem to conveniently justify some political agenda), I also note that, in that context, visions are described as visions. I would ask Russell to do the same.
|
|
|
Post by maat on Mar 5, 2007 22:32:15 GMT
Hi Phillip
Point taken. Russell does confuse me sometimes with his wording. And his questions frustrate me... I never know if he is asking a genuine question or trying to lead us somewhere ... a place he knows or knows not.
I'll hand it to the two of you - you are probably immunizing us all from getting Alzheimer's disease. Memorising ritual will be easy after getting our head around this thread.
Thank you both, by the way, for all the time and effort you have put into this line of thought. I have had lots to think about.
And thank you Moose for this little gem...
...now that is most thought provoking too.
Maat
|
|