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Post by symbol on Feb 5, 2005 10:43:58 GMT
this relates to Da Vinci programme on Channel 4. There was a Masonic historian that stated that an image on the Kirwall scroll. It was stated in the prog that the image of the two Cherubim who guard the ark of the covenant between the 2 pillars J and B, under the RA besides the breast plate of the high priest showing the twelve tribes and the sacred serpent, was in fact an image created after 1745 ( i think) it was used by the grand lodge ? and there fore the scroll could not have been made previuos to this . There is a book called 'The Secret Scroll by A Sinclair based around this 'unique' scroll, so if this is true then how could such a fundamental mistake be made in the research? Or was it a 'truth' given by an 'expert ' to discredit information in the Da vinci code ( which is a work of fiction) Can any one shed any light on this matter pls.?
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 5, 2005 15:52:51 GMT
Symbol IMHO the programme just confirmed that there are questions worth asking, all I saw was a confirmation that the Church (not neccesarally just the Catholic one either!) has many things that it is hiding and indeed probably should be ashamed about. The Scoll and the emblem you are talking about is an interesting point, why could not UGLE have got the idea for the design from the scroll? It is my impression that carbon dating is far more accurate than the 700 years each way that they mentioned on the programme. It all came across as a washover to me and I know the Da Vinci code is a work of fiction! There are many mysteries and unanswered questions but I am afraid the truth will never be told! In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson. "You want the truth? You cant handle the truth"! Thats just my opinion of course
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Post by symbol on Feb 5, 2005 16:01:52 GMT
Symbol There are many mysteries and unanswered questions but I am afraid the truth will never be told! In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson. "You want the truth? You cant handle the truth"! Thats just my opinion of course I cant ever leave at that! lol The truth may never be told maybe because maybe its never known. Maybe Jack Nicholson likes to give the impression he has something worth knowing. Maybe if he wrapped up in enough fable and mystisim people might actually believe him. No, someone out there knows something, the trouble is getting past the people with their own agendas and boy aint there alot of them ! So does anyone know the Masonic Historian from the prog, if so, what qualification does he have to make his statement. Is it yet more opinons countering more opinions. Living in confusion as always. Symbol PS. Excuse me sir, could u pass me a compass, i think ive lost my way.
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ruffashlar
Member
Lodge Milncroft No. 1515 (GLoS), Govanhill Royal Arch Chapter 523 (S.G.R.A.C.S.)
Posts: 2,184
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Post by ruffashlar on Feb 6, 2005 0:35:31 GMT
"all I saw was a confirmation that the Church (not neccesarally just the Catholic one either!) has many things that it is hiding"
One of very few factual inaccuracies in the programme is reference made to the Catholic Church: at the time of the Cathar Heresy, and of the suppression of the Templars, there was no Catholic Church. There was only the Christian Church of the Western Empire, one among many, such as the Ethiopian and Coptic Churches. The appellation catholic ("universal") was only used after the Reformation in an intended conciliatory move.
"Why could not UGLE have got the idea for the design from the scroll?"
Because the content of a grant of arms is decided by one or other of the Heraldic Colleges, and England has a different one from Scotland. More to the point, why didn't the Grand Lodge of Scotland get their coat of arms from this design? As Freemasonry in Scotland is known to antedate that in England by several centuries, this is a glaring inconsistency.
"There are many mysteries and unanswered questions but I am afraid the truth will never be told! "
How can you be so certain? Indeed, until the truth is found to be untrue, how can you be certain that there is any mystery?
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Post by mrmason on Feb 6, 2005 8:31:35 GMT
The expert on the programme was Bob Cooper, Curator and Librarian of the GLoS. A rather educated man in all things Masonic and Historical.
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Post by symbol on Feb 6, 2005 13:52:50 GMT
Now im even more confused So the Kirkwall Scroll is of a late date and the Templars never did dig at the Temple? The Priory doesnt exsist and so what else is myth ? Think ill leave and join the Lions !!!!!!! At least i'll know what is what
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 6, 2005 15:16:30 GMT
Symbol, to my mind it's a bit like Religion (and please DONT whine at me folks that Freemasonry is NOT a Religion- I had a bellyload of that on the other place). Anyway, my point is that as with Religion, there are two types of adherent. Those who wish the stark historical facts and those who are more content with the Lore. It really doesn't matter in the end if Christ was born of a Virgin called Mary or possibly Miriam, that his father or foster father was a carpenter called Joseph, or perhaps Jacob? Some believe this and take comfort from such beliefs, others simply try to follow what he taught. Likewise some of us prefer the Lore of Freemasonry, the romaticised version, others want no more than what can be historically proven from musty old documents which may or may not prove the derivation of The Craft. Each to his own, I have crossed swords on another place with a man who is so literalist as to be uncanny. (He won't appear here, he's barred) On the other end of the spectrum there are posters who will state that we are not merely decended from the Ancient Eqyptians via the KTs and their discoveries under the Ruins of the Temple but even extend this to extra-terestrial origins. Fair play! I have no problems if that is what they wish to believe. As with the Bible there is no external corroboration of some of the events stated to have occurred such as the Miracles. Likewise we have no PROOF that HA/B was actually killed by three Ruffians called the Jewes, but this story illustrates an important Moral Lesson. Does it matter? NO! One can believe as one wishes, my own position veers towards the Egypt/KT Theory.
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Post by mrmason on Feb 6, 2005 15:43:07 GMT
Hi Steve, glad you posted on the book review as I was getting dizzy going back and forth. ;D
I read the Secret Scroll a few years ago and was dissapointed with it. There are approx 15 chapters in the book and Sinclair doesn't get into the scroll until around chapter 13. The rest is taken up with a history of the KT, Sinclairs etc. It is supposed to be an ancient KT treasure map only 18 feet long!!!! It is nothing more or lesss than an early masonic floor cloth. I am aware of some background info regarding the information gathering of the scroll and lets just say the lodge concerned were not happy with it, or the way it was handled.
Steve is quite correct that each should believe what they wish with regards to this subject, and I have no problem with that. Where I get a little narked is when people tell me where my masonic order(Scottish) came from but they have only read these type of books prior to making their mind up. If someone has read into scottish masonic history and still arrives at the same conclusion then so be it, but they have looked at both sides of the argument. There is a little bit of bandwagon jumping at the moment of people wishing to belong to something that they know nothing about.
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 6, 2005 16:20:51 GMT
Well, the greatest bandwagon jumper is Dan Brown and it has taken him all the way to the bank!
Really he has taken the likes of "Holy Bood and Holy Grail" etc and put a car chase and a bit of love interest into it. With the film rights for the impending movie he will do well I'm sure.
The thing is that he is giving people what they want, and they are buying his books by the ton!
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Post by mrmason on Feb 6, 2005 17:12:28 GMT
Steve, your quite correct that people are wanting this type of thing.
I live in a small provincial Scottish town. My lodge and local church are named St Magdalene. There are 2 castles that used to belong to the Bruce family down the road from my house. Robert Bruce owned all the lands around my area A folaited cross/grail type grave slab was found in the old grave yard some years ago. The next village is called Templand. There is the remains of a Templar church at Moffat just up the road. A disused quarry near Templand was supposed to be owned by the KT. The local land has been famous for it's sheep farming for centuries.
Anyone know a publisher who is willing to give me an advance?
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Post by middlepillar on Feb 6, 2005 17:21:16 GMT
Bob
Perhaps you could run a competition to come up with a suitable title for your Bestseller! ;D
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Post by leonardo on Feb 6, 2005 17:26:16 GMT
In the new PS2 game Killzone one of the lead charachters is called Templar.
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Post by mrmason on Feb 6, 2005 17:40:10 GMT
Leo, hows about " The Templars lived in Lochmaben, built Robert Bruce's castles out of the stone from the local quarry and formed the local lodge and church whilst burying their dead in the local gravyards amongst the sheep."
or that could be the subtitle ;D
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Post by leonardo on Feb 6, 2005 18:07:14 GMT
Careful Bob.
Dan Brown reads everything on these forums - Where do you think he get's his ideas from ;D
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 6, 2005 18:42:58 GMT
Bob, get out a good OS Map. Now look for some geographical features and see if you can draw an Equilateral Triangle, or a Petalpha, or a Magen David joining them. Also is there perchance any connection with a long dead poet, painter, philosopher, who MAY have been a Freemason, or a Illuminatus? Bob, GO FOR IT! ;D
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
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Post by staffs on Feb 6, 2005 18:49:45 GMT
A Speculative Conspiracy by Currie/Foley
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Post by taylorsman on Feb 6, 2005 18:54:14 GMT
That Title is Taylor made! (and you provided it Scot Free- are you trying to Currie Favour?) ;D
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
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Post by staffs on Feb 6, 2005 19:01:44 GMT
i am sure it will be a hot seller
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Post by mrmason on Feb 6, 2005 19:07:41 GMT
These puns have got to be the worst yet ;D
As Robert Burns is buried 7 miles down the road in Dumfries I wonder if we could involve him. Also Thomas Carlisle's home town is again about seven miles down the road at Eccelfechan.
Leave it with me and I'll dream something up.
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staffs
Administrator
Staffs
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Post by staffs on Feb 6, 2005 19:14:56 GMT
Dont forget the American influence otherwise the film will be a flop unless Sean Connery is up for it
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