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Post by whistler on Apr 5, 2008 19:47:23 GMT
How can we be sure that such a thing as Freewill exists. Some claim Intelligent design. Some claim we have a Great Architect would he/she make a design, that allows lesser architects the freewill to alter the Grand Plan. Are we sure that the concept of Freewill is just an invention to make life easier.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 5, 2008 21:25:42 GMT
I have often wondered how the existence of free will became so widely believed.
As I recall it is not a feature either of the Old or New Testament.
So what is the origin of the concept? It seems to appear in our culture unheralded.
Any offers?
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Post by lauderdale on Apr 5, 2008 21:44:56 GMT
I have never really believed in total Free Will anyway, I believe we are given a certain number of choices by the Almighty.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 5, 2008 21:50:17 GMT
Well it is pretty clear that Free Will (whatever that may be) exists within the natural law.
For example most people are subject to gravity despite their wishing the contrary on occasions. (A few are able to reduce the impact of gravity for a while - often by undertaking procedures such as prayer or meditation)
But perhaps we would find some clues if we could discover when the concept of Free Will entered the human race
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Post by leonardo on Apr 6, 2008 7:43:10 GMT
If we have no freewill, who then (for example) accepts responsibility for those atrocities suffered on the Jews during WW2?
For what it's worth I believe we have total freewill and are therefore responsible for all the choices we make.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 6, 2008 8:03:06 GMT
>we have total freewill and are therefore responsible for all the choices we make
Does that include children?
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Post by whistler on Apr 6, 2008 8:16:09 GMT
If we have no freewill, who then (for example) accepts responsibility for those atrocities suffered on the Jews during WW2? For what it's worth I believe we have total freewill and are therefore responsible for all the choices we make. Leo - It was intended that those "atrocities" should have taken place, as was the execution of many of the Nazi's. It is entirely possible in the world of spirit - Those Nazi's and those Jews work in harmony in spirit for to achieve the required results.
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Post by leonardo on Apr 6, 2008 8:49:03 GMT
Whistler, with respect, you are merely expressing a belief. Please don't assume your view is the only one. Others will naturally agree with you, as others again will agree with my position.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 6, 2008 9:07:12 GMT
Indeed, I for one find it difficult to understand why Bro. Whistler should object to or even bother to comment upon anything if, as I understand, he believes everything happens according to some perfect and inflexible plan, (including your post, Bro. Leo).
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Post by whistler on Apr 6, 2008 9:13:35 GMT
No problem Leo. But take the thought back to the opposite. If Freewill permitted those "atrocities" where do we put The GAOTU. Did he/she wish it to happen. If the God who can move mountains, had wanted to surely he/she would have stopped the suffering as soon as it started.I find it difficult thinking of a God who after seeing Man killing a few million of his own kind, would think "Gee I wish they hadn't taken that option. How often do we see a Priest beside a disaster talk about a Merciful God. Great if only the God had been merciful a little earlier there wouldn't have been a disaster.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 6, 2008 9:18:27 GMT
If Freewill permitted those "atrocities" where do we put The GAOTU. This perspective depends upon a dogmatic view of deity: Might not 'God,' be a verb?
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Post by hollandr on Apr 6, 2008 9:45:11 GMT
>I find it difficult thinking of a God who after seeing Man killing a few million of his own kind, would think "Gee I wish they hadn't taken that option.
Whistler
It is commonly thought that our God is a god of love.
If so then our God requires right relationship between humans and between kingdoms in Creation as a substrate to His (or Her) unfoldment
The development of freewill hearts as nourishment for the body of manifestation of our God is one of the major contributions of the human race
Right relationship must be based on choice, hence the importance of free will
Our God therefore must await a free will choice by humans to love each other and the other kingdoms
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Post by lauderdale on Apr 6, 2008 10:01:12 GMT
"Our God therefore must await a free will choice by humans to love each other and the other kingdoms"
Which would mean that God was not Omnipotent, and I simply cannot accept that. The God I believe in is, Ipso Facto, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. We depend on our Creator for everything but it is not a reciprocal arrangement.
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 6, 2008 10:40:28 GMT
"Our God therefore must await a free will choice by humans to love each other and the other kingdoms"
Which would mean that God was not Omnipotent, and I simply cannot accept that. The God I believe in is, Ipso Facto, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. We depend on our Creator for everything but it is not a reciprocal arrangement. "Candidate, look around you and observe well the position in which you are placed..." You will find both good and evil: If there is any perfection it is as an ideal, a goal, a journey.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 6, 2008 10:52:55 GMT
>The God I believe in is, Ipso Facto, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent
I was taught the same but as you have noted, the problem of evil remains unresolved
On the other hand: As above so below
Thus if the human race is unfolding then those intelligences above may well be unfolding also and the problem of evil is resolved as irregularities in the conduct or intelligences within the unfolding Creation
I might also note that the destruction of form and the misdirection of incarnations seems much more important from below than from above.
Thus what is evil for humans may be no more than the fallout from jostling for positions in the Temple in the Heavens
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Tamrin
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 6, 2008 11:13:37 GMT
Thus if the human race is unfolding then those intelligences above may well be unfolding also and the problem of evil is resolved as irregularities in the conduct or intelligences within the unfolding Creation Indeed. Much depends on what one means by ' infinite.' Is it a 'quantity,' i.e., all that is and all that is not (the void)? Or is it a 'condition,' i.e., being without constraint?
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Post by billmcelligott on Apr 6, 2008 11:17:50 GMT
God can create rivers and streams, but he does not want to make you drink. Because if he did your will to survive would be replaced with his command.
God creates the wonders of the universe and leaves you to exercise that under-used organ the brain. He could make you do his bidding but if he did how would he know you loved him with your own free will and not by his own command.
There is no such thing as half of a 'Freewill', if you want all the good, then you have to accept the bad, as symbolised in the black and white pavement of life.
I have had a very interesting life, I would gladly go through all the rotten things, to experience even half of the good stuff.
In the end it is the same question as,
'is light the absence of Darkness or is Darkness the absence of light?'
'is evil the absence of good ?'
Would you know the one without knowing the other ?
Freewill allows you to ask these questions, it does not give the answers though.
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Post by whistler on Apr 6, 2008 18:36:58 GMT
If we have no freewill, who then (for example) accepts responsibility for those atrocities suffered on the Jews during WW2? . Leo let us exercise ourselves with this for a while. Start with the fact that you Leo was not alive or in a position to do anything about the atrocities...so you do not have any responsiblities. Now look at who you are going to give the responsibilty to. The Man who turned on the Gas, the man who ordered the gas to be turned on, the political system that allowed the thought of turning on the gas. The world situation that allowed the political system to think that thought. If there is freewill, did freewill appear at each step. Having decided who was responsible, what is Leo going to do about it. No point in hating or wanting the man who turned on the gas Dead - he probably is already dead. No point in hating or wishing evil on any of the possible circumstances. That would only bring Leo down to their Level. What we can all do including Leo , is look back on those atrocities, seek to understand the situations that cause such times to arise, and learn to avoid them- Looking at the Sudan we are slow learners
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Post by whistler on Apr 6, 2008 18:47:21 GMT
>I find it difficult thinking of a God who after seeing Man killing a few million of his own kind, would think "Gee I wish they hadn't taken that option. Whistler It is commonly thought that our God is a god of love. If so then our God requires right relationship between humans and between kingdoms in Creation as a substrate to His (or Her) unfoldment The development of freewill hearts as nourishment for the body of manifestation of our God is one of the major contributions of the human race Right relationship must be based on choice, hence the importance of free will Our God therefore must await a free will choice by humans to love each other and the other kingdoms Russell could the emotion of "love and hate " be an invention of Man, as indeed "Good and Evil' .
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Tamrin
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Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 6, 2008 18:58:49 GMT
What we can all do including Leo , is look back on those atrocities, seek to understand the situations that cause such times to arise, and learn to avoid them - Looking at the Sudan we are slow learners Two points: 1. The Nuremberg Principles of individual responsibility were agreed upon and, according to your reasoning, I guess that too would have been part of 'God's Plan.' 2. By raising the spectre of the Sudan you are only begging the question: Who is responsible there?
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