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Post by leonardo on Apr 6, 2008 19:00:07 GMT
Whistler, as I have said already we are all responsible for our own actions. The exercise you suggest, as interesting as it is, demonstrates for me an apparent inability on your side to appreciate where I'm coming from.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 6, 2008 22:13:15 GMT
>Russell could the emotion of "love and hate " be an invention of Man, as indeed "Good and Evil' .
A good question.
It is relatively common however for people confronted with extreme beings to be quite clear that the being was pure evil or pure goodness.
This suggests to me that the experience comes first and then the label
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Post by parisfred on Apr 6, 2008 22:15:01 GMT
So no freewill ... what about sin ? it reminds me the joke : god makes me an atheist
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Post by hollandr on Apr 6, 2008 22:15:08 GMT
>we are all responsible for our own actions.
Patrick
Do you set any age limits on responsibility?
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Post by leonardo on Apr 6, 2008 22:21:52 GMT
>we are all responsible for our own actions. Patrick Do you set any age limits on responsibility? Interesting question. And I see your point: Children who have yet to reach the age of reason, or those who are mentally challenged need us to be responsible for them.
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Post by whistler on Apr 6, 2008 22:32:54 GMT
>Russell could the emotion of "love and hate " be an invention of Man, as indeed "Good and Evil' . A good question. It is relatively common however for people confronted with extreme beings to be quite clear that the being was pure evil or pure goodness. This suggests to me that the experience comes first and then the label Russell the reason I started this topic was to explore just things. With the Freewill thing - it is very very complex. If there is Freewill - does it always apply, or sometimes . If sometimes what is the Criteria for applying Freewill. If there is no Freewill does the GAOTU control at some level everything we do. My little comment about Nazi's and Jew being friends when in Spirit. Reminds me or the story I read about a Man and his daughter who had a very unpleasant life together on the earth plain- when the both had returned to spirit - the spirit of the daughter thanked the spirit of her father for his behaviour that enabled her to achieve exactly the experience she came to earth for. In that example did the Man have the freewill to treat his daughter as he did
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Post by hollandr on Apr 6, 2008 22:56:29 GMT
>With the Freewill thing - it is very very complex.
At the risk of over simplifying, free will might be like being in a river. We can choose to swim upstream (actually going downstream backwards) and we can swim across and still be swept down but make some sideways progress or we can float and be swept down or we can swim down
Swimming down gives us the best chance of avoiding obstacles
But whichever way we choose we will finish in the ocean. The choice we have is cooperation, resistance or inertia
Cheers
Russell
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 6, 2008 23:38:36 GMT
At the risk of over simplifying, free will might be like being in a river. We can choose to swim upstream (actually going downstream backwards) and we can swim across and still be swept down but make some sideways progress or we can float and be swept down or we can swim down Reminds me of the saying, "Only dead fish go with the flow."
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Post by maat on Apr 6, 2008 23:45:56 GMT
If you care for others, freewill cannot exist. I wish to do this, but I must do that. OK, so I was free to choose to do the right thing... say caring for an elderly relative, but I would much rather have gone off on a world cruise. My freewill is negated by circumstances if I choose the love path.
Re: God and freewill. "In my Father's House there are many Mansions...." maybe we have free will in some of them, but not others. At a certain level we have a choice, but the rule is we must abide by that choice for better or worse, in sickness and in health, till love ... again rules.
Before we are born into another life lesson, we see the lesson to a be mastered and choose the circumstances which will facilitate a successful outcome. In this scenario, we have freely chosen the game and the rules, but once the game begins we are restricted to the rules of that game.
Maat
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Post by hollandr on Apr 7, 2008 2:17:12 GMT
The human constitution is of course very complex involving the cooperation of vast numbers of instinctive beings and large numbers of conscious beings and hopefully at least one self-conscious being
And the human is embedded in a family/nation/race/planet with all the attendent interconnectivities
And most humans are subject to unwelcome and generally unrecognised influences in large numbers. This is reflected in English expressions such as "hooked' "snowed" "taught" "blood is thicker than water" "give me the boy of 7 and I will give you the man" and many others
Sometimes the energetics of being hooked are fairly obvious. Some years ago I observed the then most senior public servant of an Australian state. He had so many dark hooks in his etheric and astral bodies that he had no room to move. I doubt that he had much freedom of choice in anything at all
In such situations the only exercise of free will may be to wish that one did have the option of free choice
People suffering from severe depression are particularly interesting to talk to about free will and use of intent
Cheers
Russell
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Post by jimnicholson on Apr 9, 2008 6:40:29 GMT
Great thread... The issue is this, we are trying to answer the question with the mind. The mind being a linear compiling associative instrument it cannot see outside of its own box. The distinguishing characteristic of true Knowledge or Fact is that it has Experience as its source, not theory nor fantasy. If all we are is a "mind" then sure -- all there could be is free will, or at least the ability to ask such a question. The serious thinker would really say "I have no idea on this because my factual knowledge of the Creator is incomplete -- may always be incomplete?"
Along these lines comes the less "intense" question regarding if there is One Life or if there are many? The long standing answer to this question has always been there are BOTH -- depending upon the viewpoint taken. The Many and the One... Dimensions of awareness yet the same individuality looking out at the question.
So now lets take the question: is it all run by the One Life or are we free? Maybe the One cut us free to have free will where as previous to the human plane, life seemed to be guided by "instinct." Creator gives the ability to choose but at the same time does not withhold the ramifications of choice -- hence Natural Law -- hence what a lot of Masonry and other modalities are about: What is that which I can choose which would be the most beneficial, to myself, those around me, and Life...
We are told our consciousness changes when we can live Natural Law. We will see new things and this question of Free Will vs Divine Will is just such a thing... It will change as we do...
...
A funny thing happens when one learns those things and takes the modifications quite seriously -- even to the point of modifying thought so as to cast only the most harmonious waveforms and suggestions onto life: They seem to "harmonize" with the Creative Power and choosing gets -- well -- less of a choice... lol...
In such an instance it would be wrong to say the WILL has been stripped away as one comes into some degree of Cosmic Consciousness -- for it would appear there is still an individuality -- a choosing entity. However there dawns a recognition of Divine Instinct or Intuition which then creates a whole new conception from which to deal with the question of free will vs. Divine Authorship.
Taking a step back, if we merely say the Divine gave us the power to choose -- by extension is that still not Divine will? Of all the things we choose with the mind and the animal plane instincts, what put those interests there? What put the biases and attractions there? Its hardly realistic to up and say they came from sheer space or from some mechanical form of evolution -- the answer must be the Divine Gave us our biases and that can be traced scientifically to genetic transference -- but no where will one find the real starting place or First Cause of these "preferences" toward this or that choice...
If one strips the mind down to its rudimentary parts they will find a Conceptual Associative Computer at work which operates upon preset biases and associations. Also instincts are there striving for expression -- all these things which color and sway the choosing -- blurring the line between this thing called true FREE choice and Divine Will.
...
Taking it a step further the mind is an INSTANT polarity creating apparatus -- it will carve things into ATTRACT or REPEL -- into WANT and DO NOT WANT -- into GOOD and into BAD -- into DESIRABLE AT THE TIME and UN_DESIRABLE AT THE TIME. It does this until trained to rise above polarities where it would appear any semblance of True Free Will exists. As long as the mind is the rule of the ship (as opposed to the soul) and the personality is swayed by OPINIONS and BIASES it is unknowingly enslaved to these momentums toward choice -- and could thus be said to: NOT BE FREE.
It would appear, for the mind, the highest form of Free Will is really choice between the opposites. Yet, what places those opposites before us? If Natural Law is always in motion ever feeding back the fruits of all causation then not much can come that is not part of Divine Will? Choice is there but again, not consequences of choice -- and we say that those consequences play out higher in the scale than mere Newtonian Pool balls banging around into each other but from the subtle forces within the Primary Ether or the Spirit Behind all Manifestation. In other words, the idea of Karma...
Thus, as far as the mind is concerned it is free to MAKE THE CHOICE but has no control over what is presented as the CHOICE, begging the question: Does the Divine Place before us the Choices we need in order to Grow? Does it see to it that when we choose right action again and again that NEW CHOICES are placed before us? If the Divine wanted us free -- and it creates and manages the entire known Universe down the single electron, then in no way does that imply TOTAL FREE CHOICE, but choice within the confines of what the Creator/Divine gave us...
Since it gave us choice it would appear one of the paramount laws of the soul is to honor that and give all freedom to choose.
Certainly, this topic is one to bookmark for another time as one evolves in consciousness, for it will change vantage over time. As one nourishes their Understanding of a One Life Principle the various arguments to and for Free Will will change drastically. As one evolves more into a soul than a personality or mind they will perceive far more variables to this most interesting question of free will.
The end result will be similar to the One and the Many paradox where BOTH ARE TRUE: We have FREE WILL and the DIVINE RUNS IT ALL... Again, the mind is likely not ready for such an answer -- it wants ONE SINGLE ANSWER! How could there be two answers and both right at the same time? Yikes... My brain hurts...
Yes, but that IS the reality and it is perfectly mirrored by the strange things seen in Quantum Physics where one particle seems to be in two places at the same time. The scientist at his or her bench does not know how to handle such a paradox! He or she's inclined to set it aside for another time when there is more information!
The key being the intrinsic parts of our SELF are far more than the mind. As we KNOW THYSELF we are really learning about all these wonderful latent aspects which are sitting in there as potential -- as long as we follow Natural Law. We must first learn Natural Law before that -- and learn about our aspects as well... Then put hand to plow and carve some rock. Before long and with added knowledge a new vantage opens up which blurs the line between free will and Divine Will -- angling more and more toward there being one comprehensive all knowing, all present, all powerful Divine Will...
...
Simple to say that we have BOTH our own IDENTITY as a FREE MORAL AGENT
A-N-D
The Divine within us... For the lower part of the Path we are mostly aware of the simple self, but as we progress and make the changes needed in regard to Natural Law we then begin to perceive this OTHER SELF, the REAL SELF -- the Aspect which is actually above time and space. To the degree we operate from that aspect there is Only Divine Will and to the degree we operate as a mind there is only Free Will. We can and do modulate between the two as there are appropriate times for each! That is living a Life! And that is normal -- its called keeping both feet on the ground.
Thus BOTH answers are RIGHT!
There is Free Will AND there is DIVINE WILL...
; >
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Apr 9, 2008 7:58:13 GMT
Very well considered post.
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Post by hollandr on Apr 9, 2008 9:23:00 GMT
>The mind being a linear compiling associative instrument it cannot see outside of its own box
Jim
I am not sure this is always true.
I suspect that the mind is capable of:
- logical analysis - inductive leaps (pattern guessing) - receiving input from other intelligences (telepathy, inspiration and interference) - sensate exploration.
The last may be quite important.
I recall the secretary of a community of which I was a member. He explained to me that each morning he sat at his desk and used his mind to travel along the connections between the various departments of the community (maintenance, garden, publications etc). In some cases he would sense blockages between some of the departments and he would go to visit them to find the trouble.
In this mode the mind may discover things it does not understand and could not deduce
Of course the internal noise needs to recede to low levels before the mind can be used in such a sensate manner
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Post by whistler on Apr 9, 2008 18:25:28 GMT
Thank you Jim Nicholson
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Post by maat on Apr 10, 2008 0:21:08 GMT
Bravo Jim! Wonderful piece. May I use it in my lodge?
Thought lots of things as I read it...
The Lodge has 7 Officers, or dimensions of awareness, which are all part of the one lodge, which is our self. Likewise our individuality can be separated into 7 components and I think the 7 chakras give a good indication of how this works. The Master/Spirit gives the commands, the Snr Warden/Soul relays follows the command and relays the message to the Personal Mind (which can be a thing of beauty).
Cosmic Consciousness - The All Seeing Eye Divine Instinct or Intuition - The Centre from which we cannot err
We pass thru the Pillars and meet the Pavement. The EA voluntarily undertakes this training.
Achieving the rank of Jnr Warden (Mind), a Bro must be careful to guard against pride. This is easy to do when he realises that he is outranked by the Snr Warden (Soul), who does not rule the ship either.
The above is all illustrated in Royal Arch. Remove the veils of illusion. Remove the chain that binds. The Sojourners (Mind, Soul and Spirit of man) are a reflection upon space and time of the great Trinity who have chosen to travel the ostacle path set before him and illustrated by the banners, which are set out on opposing sides.
Thank you again for a wonderful piece, Jim!
Maat
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Post by jimnicholson on Apr 12, 2008 5:06:03 GMT
I am not sure this is always true. I suspect that the mind is capable of: - logical analysis - inductive leaps (pattern guessing) - receiving input from other intelligences (telepathy, inspiration and interference) - sensate exploration. Interesting response Russell. The question is: are the two later aspects really the mind or is that another aspect of consciousness at work? - receiving input from other intelligences (telepathy, inspiration and interference) - sensate exploration Eventually the mind becomes a tranquil translator to what can be termed "Intuition." Also "Imagination" is considered a "higher faculty" and if one is very keen they can see that these are not of the mind but of Consciousness Itself. The 3D Consciousness that is within us. The challenge being: we are having to always "look thru" the mind to get at all sensation -- we carve information up and sequence it -- then we think its the mind however it is only a "translation." This is exactly why recalling a dream can be all at once locked up or we can no longer remember from a certain point onward -- because in the mind's slumber we were deep in the subconscious/Spirit and were within the world of pure symbolism -- as we awoke we began to "stitch it all together" like a string of pearls which is the language that the mind speaks. It only knows time and space and will put a sequence to all things. As we miss a bit, all that follows is not clear. Developed or "right" concentration can equip us to better manage the intellect -- and to remember dreams all the way through. The more the mind/intellect wakes up the more the dream recedes or becomes a sequenced bit of translation -- unless of course one has learned to keep Union with the Spirit within and partake in ongoing symbolism. A nice metaphor for this is unraveling a ball of yarn. The dream is the ball of yarn all at once -- a thought ball -- the the process of the mind is unraveling it but in sequence. It takes great discipline to keep it in sequence and in order -- a free and limber mind -- with good memory recall, concentration and Objectification. If we understand the mind as an "associative computer" we can benefit by a fun little trick to use when we get into times when there is word that is "on the tip of your tounge" but we just can't remember it. You all know the occassion? Try this: when it seems distant and no amount of sturdy concentration can make you remember it -- let it go -- clear the mind -- forget about it totally for a moment or two. Clear all active associations of it. Then just remember that you are looking for a word and without forcing it, if you can keep a steady concentration going, you WILL pull up that word -- every time! With development this can happen in a very short span of time. We can come to the point where we understand there is more to consciousness than the mind/intellect -- in fact -- the consciousness the aspiring student wants to really deal with is that which is Non-Local or "Universal." As Universal as it is, it is still within us. The internal noise you speak of Russell is merely a concept at work for the Higher Faculties are almost entirely Deductive in nature -- they follow a distinct concept that is always self induced -- and they can only operate according to the Ideas or belief system present. Noise is the name given to that which still is in a "belief" mode in terms of these higher faculties, where as "no noise" would be a "Know" mode... Almost always, the fundamental factor giving rise to an ability to let loose the fragmented mind is a well formulated "One Life Principle." If all life is one, and consciousness is within all -- and that Consciousness is within us -- or more so -- us within It -- then what horizon is not accessible? The catch being that along with that onelife principle a person must also have worked up the Trust of that Onelife -- that is -- This All Intelligent One Life knows that it is dealing with a co-worker toward Universal Beneficence -- that is -- one is going about doing good -- and within that resonance can there then be Union to a degree. The fruits of the degrees of Union with the Onelife are the things we term "Higher Faculties" such as Intuition, etc... Thus why at the base of the thing is always "good works toward Life..." Just think of the mind as a soda straw and the Universal Consciousness Field as the ocean -- that is what we are really dealing with -- and our liberty and freedom seem to be a function of how far along we are in dealing with the Ocean, which is truly infinite. When one carefully reflects upon daily expressions relating them in terms of "right" and "wrong" action, interestingly, they are in a degree of Rapport or Resonance with the Universal Consciousness Field, for its desire is for all forms to become yet more perfect vehicles for Perfect Expression. At the time of genuine reflection we are to a degree objectifying out of the mind and into Universal Awareness. From that place is given bursts of "knowing" which start out as self counseling -- or self corrective ideas toward a higher ideal. As one becomes the thinker apart from the thought -- the doer apart from the action they gradually nourish this Objectivity and carry it on toward expression of works in the world. When in bouts of vexation, anger, or irritation one can objectify and reel things back in, they are working the muscles of thinking within Universal Consciousness. As the molding goes on for days weeks and months the Universal Twin takes form -- the Real Self -- and an ideal seems to ever be present with a person -- a Second Mind as it were -- in time it will become the Teacher -- the originator even of text and words... ; >
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Post by jimnicholson on Apr 12, 2008 5:19:33 GMT
Bravo Jim! Wonderful piece. May I use it in my lodge? Silly question... Won't even answer it... lol... Consider the needs of the students foremost... Any sense of ownership should duly ride steerage to those needs...
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Post by hollandr on Apr 12, 2008 6:28:51 GMT
>are the two later aspects really the mind or is that another aspect of consciousness at work?
This is easily tested when the brother can control his or her level of consciousness
>Eventually the mind becomes a tranquil translator to what can be termed "Intuition."
I am not sure that is the whole situation. For example sometimes as I leave the house I suddenly think about something that I should take. This seems to me not to be intuition but the subconscious intelligence that uses the mind substance taking its proper role of looking after routine things so that I do not need to use up my limited attention on them
>we are having to always "look thru" the mind to get at all sensation
As we develop our light body we develop all the senses on all the levels including the mind. Thus on the mental level we may develop the sense of touch, sight, hearing etc. This allows the intelligence on the mental level to have a number of means of contacting external reality
>because in the mind's slumber we were deep in the subconscious/Spirit and were within the world of pure symbolism
It is not clear that the mind slumbers. It is a commonplace that "sleeping" on a problem often produces brilliant solutions.
>within the world of pure symbolism
That is not so clear either. There are many people who have had dreams come literally true the next day or some time after. A classic is dreaming successful lottery numbers or winning race horses
>unless of course one has learned to keep Union with the Spirit within and partake in ongoing symbolism.
Quite so. It is possible to re-enter the dream whilst awake and explore the interactions
>The dream is the ball of yarn all at once -- a thought ball -- the the process of the mind is unraveling it but in sequence.
I would suggest that the dream continues to exist as an energy field and can be entered by new participants whilst fully awake
>The internal noise you speak of Russell is merely a concept at work for the Higher Faculties are almost entirely Deductive in nature
Few humans can distinguish their own thoughts from those coming in. Hence it is difficult for humans to discover what they personally think - particularly in cities
>an ability to let loose the fragmented mind
It is common to find humans with fragmented minds. As the human learns to reintegrate the mind he or she approaches integrity
>Just think of the mind as a soda straw and the Universal Consciousness Field as the ocean
It may be of value to consider a more organic metaphor else we may discourage the contributions that can be made by a cooperative mind
>for its desire is for all forms to become yet more perfect vehicles for Perfect Expression.
Agreed. And the process goes faster if the forms agree to cooperate
>a Second Mind as it were
In the Castenada writings Don Juan talks about the mind as a "foreign installation". There is a process of transmutation that transforms the mind into a new and much more creative entity
Cheers
Russell
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Tamrin
Member
Nosce te ipsum
Posts: 3,586
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Post by Tamrin on Sept 21, 2008 9:31:20 GMT
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Post by freemanati on Jul 3, 2009 20:00:49 GMT
I think freewill operates within the realm of fate as a kind of variable .... ultimately the destiny of mankind is predetermined .... its how we get there that's left to freewill.
Carving our own destiny so to speak.....
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