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Post by gladiator on Oct 4, 2005 23:42:06 GMT
Oh NO!!!!!!!!!!! NOT THIS AGAIN. Forget it Eric you will just get in trouble. Oh I can't resist. NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Women should not, are not, will not be Masons. I will not go into any further explaination, because I may hurt someone's feelings, God forbid.
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Post by hollandr on Oct 5, 2005 3:07:42 GMT
Gladiator
Presumably this is because the TGAOTU is a man.
It can hardly be because jewish orthodox traditions required the women to be out of sight while the men prayed. Poor men could hardly think of God if a woman was in sight.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by taylorsman on Oct 5, 2005 3:46:10 GMT
Oh No! Gladiator! Reading through this Website should indicate that the majority opinion is to some extent in favour of Women as Freemasons, from outright suport of mixed Lodges such as LDH and other Co-Masonic Bodies to acceptance of the two Lady Masons Grand Lodges as long as they remain separate from Male Freemasonry.
Your objections are noted but, as you say are likely to offend some who post here. Now put that sword back in its sheath.
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phil
Member
Just me all at sea
Posts: 209
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Post by phil on Oct 5, 2005 11:50:05 GMT
Gladiator Presumably this is because the TGAOTU is a man. Russell I am not sure that you are correct here Russell. I always heard that G-D is female and that she is black.
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Michael
Member
... as you have passed through the ceremony of your initiation...
Posts: 326
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Post by Michael on Oct 5, 2005 11:57:16 GMT
Eric,
I have to admit a certain curiosity as to why you think women can not be masons. It is obviously something you feel quite strongly about but do not seem to offer any reason why. (deep breath before answering please -we don't want to offend do we)
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Post by gladiator on Oct 5, 2005 13:10:17 GMT
Michael, I'm just an old fashion kind of guy. My opinions are based on my experiences, as are most people's opinions. I grew up in an Italian family. Mom never worked outside the house, nor did any of my Grandmothers. I guess it's a cultural thing. I just see different roles for women and men in society. There was nothing wrong with the old and true ways in my opinion. If TGAOTU had intended for females and males to be on equal footing socially than it would have been so throughout history. I believe women and men are both equally important in their separate roles, but I just can't see women as leaders. It's a mind set that may change someday, but It would take a lot to do so. Sorry I'm such a barbarian. Eric
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phil
Member
Just me all at sea
Posts: 209
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Post by phil on Oct 5, 2005 18:05:29 GMT
Michael, You say "I guess it's a cultural thing" and support that with your particular history and "culture". I repsect that but would ask you to consider whether that cultural indoctrination is, in effect, both limited and limiting. Limiting in that it restricts the way you further think and behave and limited in that it is, by definition, a local environmental indoctrination that is not further effected by the behavioural patterns (paradigms) of other cultures and attitudes throught the world. I would enchourage you to broarden your attitudes as far as your consciounce will permit. Having said that, I must say that I too was brought up in Freemasonry in a very conservative, male only environment but have broardened my attitudes, refusing to be limited, and benefiting from what were my experiences in life. Feemales are not only as good as males, many are far better. A man may hold a belief, why not a woman? A man may follow a religion, why not a woman? A man may be a philosopher, why not a woman? A man may wish to study the esoterics of life, why not a woman? As freemasons, our virtues are meant to include tolerance. Let us then tolerate the alternative opinions and try to resist being dogmatic in our attitudes. Furthermore, let us remember that the so-called rules were invented by the men that wanted to protect their own environment. In the past, some of those rules included: 1/ Every Mason must be a member of a church 2/ Jews were not permitted in freemasonry 3/ Blacks were not permitted in masonry 4/ Women were not permitted in masonry Are all those rules still correct? ??
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Oct 5, 2005 19:41:48 GMT
Phil,
there are some rules which are imposed by men, others that are imposed by G-D.
Hindus say "rta", complying with the (cosmic) Order.
The difference between the two genders, and the relevant consequences on their mental organization, pertains to the latter.
Women may have, of course, their own initiatory organization and follow their path with all our respect and admiration, but far from men, please!
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phil
Member
Just me all at sea
Posts: 209
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Post by phil on Oct 5, 2005 21:00:18 GMT
And I thought that we all enjoyed masonry due its lack of dogmas?!?
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Post by taylorsman on Oct 5, 2005 21:14:32 GMT
Freemasonry is as full of "Dogmas" as any man-made organisation. Like any large body which has been in existance for many years there are camps and factions. The Rules have been framed to try to mitigate this, Bro Peter Taylor has quoted one on another thread.
The best compromise is to arrive at a "Modus Vivendi" and where this is not possible to beg to differ and go our separate ways. I have done this in the past both by leaving a Lodge in which I was not happy and was at variance with two of its long standing Brethren, and likewise a Forum where I did not like the Moderatorial Policy and how it was applied.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Oct 5, 2005 21:59:02 GMT
Eric, I have to admit a certain curiosity as to why you think women can not be masons. It is obviously something you feel quite strongly about but do not seem to offer any reason why. (deep breath before answering please -we don't want to offend do we) Mike, ever seen a pregnant man?
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Post by Hubert (N. Z.) on Oct 6, 2005 0:06:36 GMT
Surley the whole purpose of the creator in forming male & female entities was to enable them to live conjunct lives TOGETHER. Neither is WHOLE without the other, those that choose to live separately are generally missing out on this completeness. There are time one needs to ABSTAIN as it were, but Ceremonial endeavours does NOT benefit from this. To seek the TRUTH from a participation with T.G.A.O.T.U. can only benefit if ALL HER/HIS creation is involved. An example: The best Temple for working in would be with a hard MUD floor, as we would be connected to "Mother Earth". Because of our 'need' for comfort we meet in floored buildings, but in the 3rd degree Initiation there is a vital point were we would greatly benefit if we were connected to mother earth.
Eric, as a fellow Brother, I respect your right to your views, but would earnestly suggest you stand asside from them for a while to investigate, possibly through meditation, if the notion of ceremonial work would not indeed benefit from inclusion of feminine ENERGY, whilst still continuing with your present preferences. If you have a local Co-masonic Lodge handy, request (from their Master) that you may attend a meeting so that you can at least observe the atmosphere present at such a meeting. This forum has long agreed that each Bro. should follow the path that best suits themselves, but should we not All investigate every avenue available, before we die to FIND THE TRUTH?
W.H.G.W, Hubert
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Post by maat on Oct 7, 2005 6:44:58 GMT
Oh NO!!!!!!!!!!! NOT THIS AGAIN. Forget it Eric you will just get in trouble. Oh I can't resist. NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Women should not, are not, will not be Masons. I will not go into any further explanation, because I may hurt someone's feelings, God forbid. Eric - I loved this post! You made me beam...to reward you I will sit down tonight and write 100 lines "I am not a Mason" (I will let you know when I start believing it). ;D Seriously - I really do admire you having the courage to stand by your conviction. Gio - "there are some rules which are imposed by men, others that are imposed by G-D." Prove it! (The G-d part). I think Phil hit the nail on the head - a perfect(?) system with imperfect rules. Elitism appeals to many. My life wouldn't change much if Masonry wasn't there any more - but I would be forever grateful for the opportunities and advantages it has afforded me.
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giovanni
Member
odi profanum vulgus, et arceo
Posts: 2,627
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Post by giovanni on Oct 7, 2005 7:02:50 GMT
Gio - "there are some rules which are imposed by men, others that are imposed by G-D." Prove it! (The G-d part). Maat: have you ever seen a pregnant man?
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Post by maat on Oct 10, 2005 1:56:13 GMT
Ouch! (How wise of G-d to entrust the really important tasks to us ) Maat
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Post by hollandr on Oct 10, 2005 2:44:54 GMT
>Maat: have you ever seen a pregnant man?
Is this a subtle way of telling us that male-only lodges bear little fruit.
Cheers
Russell
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Post by maat on Oct 10, 2005 4:40:36 GMT
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jmd
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Post by jmd on Oct 24, 2005 7:05:10 GMT
Personally, I have to agree that there are differences in human constitution that are quite different between men and women... as most others would as well. The example given by Giovanni is probably the most obvious case in point.
However, there are some questions that arise from this.
Firstly, does the fact that only women can be pregnant imply that only men can be politicians (or any other social position)?
Secondly, that there are differences between men and women entail that Freemasonic initiation excludes women from being able to participate?
If so, in what sense?
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Post by hollandr on Oct 24, 2005 9:31:31 GMT
>there are differences between men and women entail that Freemasonic initiation excludes women from being able to participate?
If this is so then perhaps we should claim to be Sons of the Widower
Cheers
Russell
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Post by ingo on Oct 25, 2005 7:00:26 GMT
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